A Direct Question For QuietLion ………..
 

A Direct Question For QuietLion ………..

OK, I admit that I have posted here on FT other than as Ozstamps. The more this saga drags on, the more obvious it is that many other well known FT’ers have done/are still doing the exact same thing daily, and many serpents like notsonewhere still refuse to reveal their regular board handles or email address. (Despite being pressured to by many others, whilst posting aggressively under those fake handles in a manner they would never dare ordinarily.) Let us also see some disclosure THERE is my request. At least a dozen totally fake new posters have been spawned in the past week alone that I have seen.

Yes, in hindsight what I did was not a wise or sensible thing, and I now wish I had not posted many things in the past in the way I did, but what’s done is done - it can’t be undone. I apologise to anyone here on these boards it has upset in any way, and I have now owned up to it and moved on. I have personally met several dozen wonderful people from FT during my 6 months on these boards, and in my extensive travels for Christmas and New Year am planning to meet quite a few more. Divisive flames like those that have occurred in the past week are not serving anyone’s benefit, and sorry to have been the latent cause for most of this batch.

I was not aware of onefreeman’s wife Rae’s medical problem when I posted to him initially, and I apologised to him immediately by email when I was privately alerted to the situation, and I no longer added to those threads. He mentioned the matter himself on board soon after, so I am not “talking out of school" here.

Perhaps this past week of analysis might see others here agree to reveal THEIR true identities and/or other handles they have used, and the air might be a lot clearer for ALL of FlyerTalk for the future???? This then might be the “fess up” thread for any such admissions, as there are clearly dozens of fake ID’s out there right NOW. When I see Star Chamber or Spanish Inquisition behavior by some members of these boards, including publicly naming other quite innocent parties as being Ozstamps, and then not apologizing for that or editing them when proven wrong, it would appear there is serious blame on both sides.

QuietLion recently publicly named a other FlyerTalkers as really being Ozstamps. I rapidly advised him on board he was incorrect, as did they, and I suggested he apologise publicly to those FlyerTalkers, but he did not. To this day he has chosen NOT to even edit his quite false accusations which is simply plain RUDE to those he falsely accused. (To put it mildly.) Some friendly “Community” here. Sometimes. Go read “Animal Farm”! If anyone here feels that type of behaviour is fair, sensible, or is in ANY way, in the spirit of a happy, friendly, “Community”, you might well take a LONG hard look at yourself and YOUR values. Juancho, one of those so named did respond and was called “a coward” for doing so by Camera Guy, as he did not show an email address, and ditto was blasted by Hunnybear for good measure. (But who also did not respond to the PfP question.)

I did however notice Camera Guy and others posting side by side seemingly each hour with notsonewhere, who also has no email address, and openly admits to being a well known FlyerTalker in “real” life, too pathetic a “person” to post under his real handle. Like a bad Monty Python script. MEFirst needed to resort to starting a thread asking for proof from accusers that he was other than who he was, denying he was I, and was curtly told to take his thread off the boards. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif MukMuk and seeyou were also just less than obliquely accused of being bogus. What utter nonsense. (The former joined FlyerTalk months before I did, and the latter in Sept 1999!) So much for fair play and natural justice around FlyerTalk at times. It has been more like a Salem Witch Hunt in the past week. A few board members armed with their $3.86 Wal-Mart “Junior Detective Kits” have made complete fools of themselves IMHO.

Quiet Lion was simply asked to answer “Yes” or “No” as to whether he was/is behind or ever connected with in any way the “PfP” army of fake posters evident on these boards over a long period of time, as some rather interesting ‘evidence’ had allegedly indicated. Dr. PfP, Reverend PfP, Doctor PfP, Mrs. PfP etc. QuietLion promptly responded to the question within 2 hours on-board (thank you) but tellingly, did not answer the question at all. (Despite having pilloried me non-stop for a week over duplicate board ID.) And has been a VERY “Quiet” Lion ever since.

I ask it again, as have several others publicly on the boards. I never claimed QuietLion was behind the PfP’s, indeed said I doubted it, but quite simply posed the very simple question. I have been judged guilty by many here for choosing not to respond promptly to a similar question and specific thread wording on another Forum, so do hope the same Wild West justice rules also apply to all FlyerTalkers. (Read “Animal Farm” again.) Perhaps if the PfPs were not QuietLion their real “creator” will step forward? Perhaps the moon is made of green cheese?

So, I ask that question once again QuietLion. If you do have nothing to hide, you I am sure will be delighted to quickly clear the air on this one in the wider interests of a fully informed FT Community?

Other than that answer (or the clear conclusions drawn from the lack of a one word answer) I hope the flames will settle now, for the good of FlyerTalk in general, and in the spirit of Christmas goodwill, and disappear into the archives of FlyerTalk. I will certainly not be prolonging this by an on-board debate, which as many senior heads have urged me, is fruitless in the longer term. I do however, thank those many sensible senior members of FlyerTalk, indeed lots of FlyerTalkers in general, for their private input and thoughts by email in this matter.

Those posters on the flame threads are offset but 1000s declining to do so. I do hope the only responses to this thread are from REAL user ID’s, from REAL FT’ers. ANY other responses will show the hypocrisy of those not prepared to stand behind their usual FT user name. Why not demand each fake poster to this thread identify themselves publicly and start a new standard for at least one FT thread?? The events of the past week may be the start, albeit painful, of a new, more transparent and open era on Flyer Talk? This thread may also degenerate into another flame war presided over by fakes users. The “Community” right now can call the shots on which way the posts go from here. Over to you.

And the final words I will post are from the cowardly notsonewhere himself, who said on December 7:

About revealing my identity, I'll think about it. Who cares? But let me say that even if ...

Quote:

---

members here would lend more credence to your words if they knew who was actually saying them.

---

... then what?

I think a lot of people here should care who this spineless person is. You still have an unhooded festering, ulcerous sore among you folks, if you go back and study all the posts of this “person”. (sic) Several of you now have his/her ISP from emails, so IF the will is there, so is the answer. If the suggested ISP logging of ALL FT posters by Randy does take place with the new software, I would be the first to support it. Notsonewhere would be victim #1.


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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 12-13-2000).]

I am dumbfounded.

Amazing!

Oz, I think you really need to re-read your own post. That's some "apology!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

You contradict yourself several times and expect of others what you yourself have refused to do over and over again. Then you go on to resume your time honored tradition of infering that specific folks have aliases. I guess you just don't get what Quietlion was attempting to illustrate?

I think you just believe that those that are most vocal against you are the aliases! Don't you get it? Why should those folks adopt aliases? They are perfectly vocal in their own real voices!

I think you are a bit like a bad marksman. You keep missing the target, and keep hitting innocent bystanders.

Just incredible! I could pick apart almost every sentence in the above, but I'm too tired right now. But I'll start with just a couple of observations:

The apology to new accuasation/inflamatory remark ratio is a bit off balance, IMHO.

Oz, I think you have several weeks of edits to perform before you can even begin to run that one up the flagpole. IMHO.

You write: ...and then in the next breath say: Right. Merry Christmas Mr. Sophistry. Oz, I think you've met the enemy. And he is you.

OMG. "Dam*ed if you do, Dam*ed if you don't." ( © Animal Farm). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif


Very poor manners I think, but maybe you might correct me?

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 12-13-2000).]

PremEx: be thankful for what we got. You can't go to Hungry Jack's and expect Fatburger.

Ozzie... a simple "I was wrong and I won't do it again" would have sufficed quite nicely , thank you very much.

Instead you've tried to use your apology to make your behavior appear to be eveyone else's fault but your own. You came into a forum that was relatively peaceful (with a few notable exceptions), and in a very short period of time turned it into a maelstrom the likes of which had never before been seen on FT.

Your behavior is much like a child who craves to be the center of attention, and who will go to all ends to get said attention, including disruptive, digusting and sometimes self destructive behavior.

I rather doubt that your behavior will change (at least for the better), regardless of whether you decide to concentrate on being Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde.

A chameleon changes color, but it is still a chameleon.

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danville 1K

[This message has been edited by danville 1K (edited 12-13-2000).]

OZZIE, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!.

What are the "Multiple Handles" you are admitting that you used?

Are you accusing me of being notsonewhere? If not, please edit your post. You are clearly implying that I am. Unlike you, and I will use YOUR words, I am not spineless. I have NEVER used an alias. You cannot say the same.

You call me to task for referring to Jauncho as a coward. Jauncho is a coward and a troll. I distinctly remember you constantly whining about members here posting without e-mail addresses. While at the same time, posting under aliases without e-mail addresses. Now I am wrong for wanting Jauncho to stop being a coward and post an e-mail address. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.

Before all of the "Chamberlain's" here start with the endless posts about "Getting Along" and "He apologized, please let it go", reread Ozzies post. It is not an apology at all. He accuses Quietlion of being the Pfp's and he accuses me of being NSNH.

I will refresh everyone's memory. "JaneJet" accused Premex of being NSNH. Now Ozzie accuses me of being NSNH. JaneJet = Ozzie. Apparently, even his multiple personalities cannot agree.

One thing is apparent, Ozzie will never admit he is/was wrong. I for one will not forgive him for his hypocrisy. I will also take every one of his posts with a grain of salt. Ozzie, your credibility is gone. Sure, you will be able to fool new member’s. But, those of us who know the “real” Ozzie, will always know the truth.

Hey! Does anyone know the best way to make ExecPlt on AA?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Camera Guy. What is in your coffee this morning? I don't see you or Quiet Lion being accused of being anyone else. I will not be amending that post. Save it please to "check" on me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Please READ my post and then check your own credibility - Thank you.

So you now claim everyone without an email address is a troll and a coward so they can be accused of anything? Yep, whatever you say. You never said that of your apparent buddy in flames notsonewhere though. But you may just have forgotten that in all the yahoo excitement of the witch hunt?
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~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 12-13-2000).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

danville 1K is a marksman:


I'm following richard's advice offered in several other threads. I'm moving on to legitimate topics to talk travel & miles.

Well Geo, Ozstamps is the only person I know that writes apologies using a flamethrower http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

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danville 1K

I am a rather infrequent posster here. However, I think I may be able to bring some insight to bear here. Ozstamps, perhaps the best way to forget, or get past, these type of confrontations is to simply pretend they never happened. We are all adults here, all adults who want to talk about travel, and frequent flyer programs, and such. There is no need to keep pretending this is a soap opera. Let's all just get along, and move on to the topics we all want to talk about. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Ok?

Oz writes:
...
Oz then writes:
There's this old saying (originally about the transatlantic
situation, but apparently applicable to the transpacific
one), "two nations separated by a common language" (mighty
common at times, too, I may add, not that mine is always a
paragon). There's something particularly irksome about
innuendo in that when one reacts to the subtext, here not
so far hidden, the indignant self-righteous response is
predictable - perhaps almost automatic.

Oz, this is the first time I've addressed you directly in
some months: I hope you're man enough not to amend that
post.

danville 1K writes: How does the other old saying go, "I was mistaken, you told a
falsehood, he's a liar?"

Lastly, aside to SRQ Guy: it's not Oz who has the luxury of deciding to forget or not: it is the rest of the community that will decide whether to forgive and forget Oz.

Who sez? I wanna play with my pal ozzie!

Ozstamps: I am glad to see you endorse the idea of turning on IP logging as outlined in
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/000775.html

I have long observed the phenominon of reformed smokers, drinkers, etc. becoming the most ardent opponents of their former vice.

In some cases, I agree that someone who has been there and done that can make an effective spokesperson against their transgression. In other cases, such sermonizing and accusations smack of hypocricy.

E.g., IMHO, O.J. should not be a spokesperson against domestic violence. And you should not make a play for the moral high ground against fake identities.

I appreciate that you have at long last owned up to your abhorrent practice. Like others, I would have better appreciated a more full confession as to the identity of all of your multiple handles as well as a more focused apology. But I acknowledge that you did the best you could given who you are and as I say, appreciate it.

Ozzie, You are pathetic.

At least one other member here agrees that you insinuate that I am NSNH.

I read your pathetic post twice before I replied. I stand behind every word in my post.

If you would take the time to read my post, you will see that I did not claim that every member who does not use an e-mail address is a coward and a troll. I said that Jauncho is a coward and a troll. If Jauncho posts an e-mail address, He/She will no longer be a coward. They would still be a troll.

Thank you so much for helping those of us who want you to go away make our case. Proving a point is so much easier when your opposition has no common sense.

------------------
Futility =
Engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

What? No response to my execplt request?

Violist....

Forgive? Maybe....

Forget? Well, ozstamps is pretty unforgetable......

Reading ozstamps' posts (particularly the one that started this thread) reminds me of the classic definition of chutzpah... the man who murders both of his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.



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danville 1K

drtravels: Fly a lot

------------------
danville 1K

Danville, new rate is $20 a post after the the first four per hour. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

Glen,

While I applaud the concept of apologizing for misdirections...what you posted above only made me feel worse about the past few weeks on FT.

I wish you hadn't posted what you wrote. I wish you had taken a much higher road and been short & clear in your words.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Dorian

------------------
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel recommendations: http://www.flyersplaces.com
Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

Ozzie wrote:

If that's the going rate then I guess you'll be in hock for the rest of your life, won't you?

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danville 1K

[This message has been edited by danville 1K (edited 12-13-2000).]

I deleted my inappropriate message.

[This message has been edited by wonderland60069 (edited 12-14-2000).]

Oz, can you be a little more exacting what you are trying to prove? I thank you for admitting past alias...it might have been a joke that went too far. I hope so because you do have a
great deal of knowledge and great tips to offer us..I have used many of them. We all make mistakes..I know I have done my share, but never on FT would I mislead a fellow traveler with false info or false hope. Again..let us try too forget what happened and move on with the original FT concept of trust! We need people like you who spend a great deal of personal time researching and finding ways to make our family stronger. We don't need clutter or flaming. Apology accepted upon an immediate apology to the board with out adding more "fuel to the fire". Oz please respond! and tell us why you even started to clone yourself...one Oz is plenty. The holidays are coming up and I can't even get a cheap flight to Puerto Rico from MIA! This is my immediate problem- FTer's out there have any ideas to get me to the Carribean for this weekend? A 30 or 35k award is available, but I would rather save the miles and pay for the tix since my EXP status is locked in. Thanks for the year.

drtravels: AA EXP is 100k qualifing miles or points, no segment qualifier for the calender year.


------------------
MRKEY

[This message has been edited by MRKEY (edited 12-13-2000).]

MrKey .. come join us in RIO for NYE! Love to hear about your "Baht Pass".

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/003782.html

And you can come too WonderGland from Half Wit Illinois. You can slither right on down surely? Why not go play now in the CO Forum please, and leave this thread to those with REAL names? New policy remember. Go read about it above. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Oh btw .. Randy's folks have logged your ISP as we speak.

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 12-13-2000).]

drtravels...make 1K on United and then ask for a comp status match. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I agree with Dorian and MRKEY. I think a simple apology would have been far better than adding more fuel to the flames.

Now lets get back to miles and travel.

While I do not particularly condone threads such as this, Glen, to his credit and on his own terms, essentially did come forward and did apologize just as many had urged him too!

While I surely do not speak for Glen, I think his point above was perhaps simply and sadly that NOT everyone else has. He would ideally like to see "equal protection under the law!" One may also wonder to what extent Glen was perhaps (but wrongly) motivated to engage in the use of multiple handles in an effort to defend himself from countless flames directed at him from other multiple handles?

While two wrongs do not make a right, self defense may perhaps prove to be a mitigating factor in the eyes of some.

We could all likely take a higher road, IMHO!

I'm personally both forgiving and forgeting and most importantly trying to move on ahead- just as richard and others have suggested!

Perhaps if there are those, as noted, who will not ever forgive Glen or perhaps not even forget, they will still consider moving forward! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Ozstamps:

If I may make a humble suggestion on apologies. Shorter is better. Humility is better.

You could have accomplished much more with something like...

"In the past I have been accused of posting with multiple identities. I am writing to admit to a lack of judgment, and have been posting under x, y, z, etc.

I believe this behavior is wrong, and I am truly sorry.

In the spirit of clearing the air, I ask all others who have also engaged in this practice to public admit so here in this thread."

I regret that there are going to be many posts that follow that do not view your post as a true apology, but more of a "Ya'but" that most parents are familiar with.

For one, I would like to say that I am glad to see you owning up. The three hardest words many of us have to say is, "I was wrong", and since you are not married, you are probably not as practiced at it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Doc...Very well put!

------------------
MRKEY

There is a behavior pattern evident here that is not unlike that of a spouse batterer whose MO is to provoke and then semi apologze and then move on without ever understanding that despite the jollies felt by the batterer, the receiver of the behavior continues to remember and remains scarred by the act itself.
Periods of helpful posts intermingled by nastiness is a pattern that has been consistent as if every so often there is a need to lambast someone else in order to feel important or powerful. IMHO

------------------

Ozstamps - your public apology is acknowledged from me. I know that is a hard thing to do with the audience we have on this board. I hope this is over and that you understand I'll be watching as will others, but we do appreciate the contributions to the board and I still count on you among those whose point-of-view I like to hear of. We need great representation from around the world - but please, one voice is enough.

BTW, we will probably make a decision on IP logging today and while not solely caused by this matter, it does make us want to be sure we can all be who we are.

Randy: that's the best news I've heard all week. As Oz himself pointed out in my thread under Community, if IP logging is good enought for Ebay, it ought to be good enough for Flyertalk http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Randy and doc, with all due respect, you have not been a victim of this person. And Randy, with all due respect, I don't think you know half of what's transpired here in hundreds of threads.

If either of you call that thing an apology...well... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

It's not an apology, IMHO. Just because the word is in the text doesn't make it one. I think he's hoping some folks see it as such. But it's just a sham and a vehicle to expound some more of the same, IMHO.

I don't see anything in that speech that indicates sincerity to me. Gives me more the impression of someone who is attempting Damage Control only because he was caught red-handed with his hand in the cookie jar, and he's still trying to focus the blame elsewhere and make himself to look like the pursecuted one. IMHO.

Evasions. Diversions. Rationalizations. Justifications. Accusations. They are all there. This baby's a classic!

If it were me, I would be more ashamed of myself after giving that accusative and non-contrite diatribe, than anything I could have felt beforehand.

The more I read it and think about it, the more it ticks me off. He says: Oz thanks for letting us know that you've decided to move on. Geez.

How can we consider forgiveness if we don't even know which names he's refering to posting under and therefore know who he's done wrong to? Hell, for all I know, he could even be wonderland or notsomeone just to build up the drama to his benefit and rationalize his position as the persecuted one! He hasn't confessed to anything except posting "other than Ozstamps."

Hell, I've posted other than PremEx! It's what handle and what was said under that handle that he would like us all to except as being, well...brushed under the table?

Even the very title of the thread itself is challenging, not contrite, humble or apologetic.

Stinks worse now than before, IMHO. I don't see how I could ever forgive him now, especially after this sad admission. I certainly won't ever respect him. His "contributions" and helpful threads are way too high a price to pay for his behavour, IMHO.

How many times did we have to hear him say "I'd never do that." And now he not only doesn't apologize for lying about that or any other specific wrong, but goes on in the very statement and condemns others for doing just that!!

Like koko says, Oz is the last person to be stating his position on this subject!

If he respected us at all, I think he would just go away. No vote. No counts. I know I would. In shame. I don't think he will, which I think speaks for how much he respects us here, as well as his true character as a person.

Sorry Oz, but that's the way I see it. And that's coming from Mark Love aka PremEx. Not someone you accused me of being.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 12-13-2000).]

It's absolutely pathetic that they now have to log IP numbers. Shame on all of you who feel the need to belittle specific people in public forums. Thanks for making me less likely to participate or view this increasingly sick forum.

Well said Doc! I agree with you. OZ has suffered enough IMO and deserves to be pardoned for having guts to own up to multiple personalities. A lot of people on this board still hide behind "ghosts" and refuse to admit it.

BTW, (excuse my naivety) is QuietLion away somewhere or is s/he just avoiding the question asked in the heading of this thread? Equality for everyone or what?

I must echo Premex's comments. This was no apology.

While I don't wish for Glen to go away I don't believe what he wrote above was truly sincere and forthcoming. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Don't get me wrong, I WISH it was!

I must admit to being a little disappointed in Randy...posting what he did above. I woulda steared clear of this thread if I was in his position. IMO.

Glen, I harbour no ill feelings towards you (like maybe some others do) but your 'apology' was the low road IMO.

I'm going shopping, FT bums me out big time.

Dorian

p.s. thanx to my friends for emailing me directly in the past week regarding this and other items...nice to see us connecting more off FT during these sad times on the board.



------------------
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel recommendations: http://www.flyersplaces.com
Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

While I generally don't respond to these types of threads, and will try not to any more, I feel compelled to state the following, with no disrespect intended:

Premex, AA will not comp you to EP status. You have to earn it the old fashioned way. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

And has anyone noticed that in the bottom right hand corner a sign says that our IP-s have been logged? Seems like a win to anti-privacy voices. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

DELETED

[This message has been edited by MRKEY (edited 12-13-2000).]

I understand/suspect that there is actually more to this story, MRKEY!