The only thing I now care about is that there are no more multiple handles. FT should certainly watch for this in contentious threads and shut it down (hello? moderator??).

In my eyes...any fake handles from now on should be dislosed...unless as Rudi put it...there are in the spirit of fun. As soon as they deviate or have an underhanded purpose...the person(s) should be warned once by FT and if need be after that their account deleted.

IMO,

Dorian



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flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel recommendations: http://www.flyersplaces.com
Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

Great post, Rudi.

I'm looking forward to all of us talking travel.

Rudi: the one thing you seem to enjoy more then starting a war is ending one...I thought swiss were neutral . IMHO, Oz is now throughly damaged goods. How can we ever trust that he wont do this again but be more careful next time? Hell, who is to say he's not posting as someone else even as I type this! If I were the king of the world, he'd have to apologize and promise to be good. But I ain't holding my breath. I've found that people are people and there's only so much they can change.

OTOH, my cult demands forgiveness (thank GOD, for my sake), but as a prerequisite one is supposed to confess to their transgressions and make a commitment to sin no more. So I guess that'd be enough for me!

As for the future of FT, this whole debacle does not bode well in my mind. Sadly, I can only see it getting worse.

Is it not at long last time to seriously consider moderation?

Rudi, you are a true gentleman for your post (but we all already knew that). I would like to join you, but I think some important steps need to be made.

Let's be clear about this person who has at one time or another in the past five months offended, deceived, and misled most of "us". We can forgive past actions and welcome him back, but we should not forget either. Given the severity of his actions, I really don't think forgetting is even an option at this point.

What I am most concerned about is that in the past Ozstamps appeared to patch things up with various posters after engaging in a nasty confrontation. But his sincerity and on-topic posts were always shortlived. Before long, he would begin the cycle of abrasive, misleading, and selfish posting activity all over again. This culminated in his creation of multiple, mulitple personalities. I wish I could explain the rationale behind his initial and subsequent behavior, which I still find insulting for lack of a better word, but it really is inexplicable. Cats get nine lives, but humans rarely do. In my opinion, Ozstamps has already used up more than his fair share of the nine (lives and handles) that are allowed on this board.

So, where do "we" go from here? It would be easier to answer this question if Ozstamps made an appearance and apologized.

In the absence of one, how kind and forgiving does this community need to be?

Rudi, sorry to disagree but personally I think it's far too gone. Hope you understand for many reasons, including Koko's and fallinasleep's.

I'm with Rudi. There has been too much nastiness all around.

Ozstamps is likely not going to go away, nor would FT be better off if he did.

I propose that those who do not wish to accept ozstamps back into the fold, or whatever, fine, do not, but also do not haunt him. Let him go about his business, and you go about yours.

I have had negative experiences with FlyerTalkers. I believe I and they have been able to get past all of these. If not, that is life. People do not get along in real-life communities, so we don't all have to sing a virtual "Kum-Ba-Yah," either.

Each person should make his or her own decision as to whether they want to interact with ozstamps, and then follow their path. No one is going to get anyone to change their minds about him, so let's stop with this. This thread is long enough that people can decide for themselves what they want to do.

If not, then where will it end? Are we going to argue this until ozstamps comments, which he says he won't do? Are we going to start "stalking" him on other threads until he does? That will be ugly and likely unsuccessful. The only way for the situation to improve is to get past this. The only way for that to happen is for each of us to make a personal decision to either interact with ozstamps or not.

motnot wrote: I sadly agree with the first part of that statement, and strongly disagree with the second part of the same.

I personally do not believe that whatever "constructive" posts he has made put together and multiplied by 10, are validation or cancel out even ONE of his deliberatly hurtful posts.

And I belived that long before janejet.

You wrote: I'm sorry, but my parents brought me up saying you don't get acceptance or forgiveness until you fess up and ask for forgiveness. And even then you can't expect or demand it.

I think his many victims are still waiting for their due. Why should they want to cut him any slack? They certainly weren't afforded any.

I agree with you that he should not be "stalked."

I'm not saying that anyone has to forgive Ozstamps or anyone else. My point is that this mess has gone on long enough. People can continue calling for Ozstamps to fess up, or they cannot. I think both options are likely to have the same effect.

Whatever Ozstamps chooses to do is up to him. Whatever you or I or anyone else chooses to do is up to us. So if you don't want anything to do with Ozstamps, that's OK. That's your choice. I just think it's time to move on. If you want to shun him, fine. Just stop trying to convince others to. And same if you think reconciliation is the way to go. This thread has made it painfully clear that people are not switching their views on that issue.

At some point there probably was an acceptable framework for some type of reconciliation. I think possibly acceptable course of action were discussed both privately with 'them' via email and publicly on this thread and others. As most rational people will do, we all presume we are dealing with another rational being.

The behavior of the ozzie-phalanx is neither rational nor logical. Would a rational person, obviously caught (sorry for the pun but it's apt!) in the cookie jar, behave as we have seen 'them' behave for the past week? Would a logical person assume that they could ignore this for a while and it will go away without any sort of acceptance of responsibility? Would you accept this kind of behavior from a peer or colleague? My answer is resoundingly NO...

I quoted this in another thread that this was sent to me by another FlyerTalker via email almost one week ago:

And in the long run, why would we ever want to provide even an iota of respect to someone who has behaved with such shame, dishonor, and disrespect?

And how will you shield the new FTer's who join a week from now or a month from now or six months from now? How will they know that the nice tidy garden of FT hides a snake, all coiled up and hissing? Will you ever look at a newbie and wonder if this is yet another of the ozzie-phalanx? Do you enjoy being used? How much deception are you willing to accept? Is your standard of conduct so low that this behavior is acceptable?

And all of the above is just worth the amount of time and energy required to produce it. For in the long run, 'they' are here to stay.

FlyerTalk will never be the same again. And that makes me sad...

Onefreeman:
With all due respect, FlyerTalk will never be the same from ANY day to the next, regardless of what takes place.

As for the multiple handles, we all know they exist, and have existed for quite a while. While certainly the latest unfolding of events have "pushed the envelope", this really isn't unchartered territory.

Is Flyertalk dimished in some respects by this behavior? Yes. While it survive and endure? I expect it will. I certainly hope so.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

it seems as though my original post made sense to some and not to others. upon further consideration, it seems best to take a mulligan on this one.

i make mistakes often, please don't hold this one against me.

[This message has been edited by eastwest (edited 12-07-2000).]

Ozstamps, come back! Why not metamorphose a new handle like, say, GregorSamsa. The Kafkaesque image of you as a cockroach with a festering rotten apple in your back is appealing. Miss ya punkin'

Edited due to eastwest's like edit.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 12-07-2000).]

onefreeman, I have to respectfully disagree with you that ozstamps' behavior the past week is unreasonable. He did say that he would not post to this thread again. If he is guilty, then an admission is bound to be very difficult, and may not have made a big difference with many of the FTers who have lined up against ozstamps. If he is not guilty, nothing he could say would convince those who think he is.

So I don't find his actions unreasonable, although I don't think they are what I would have done if I were him.

One last thing, if ozstamps truly was as unscrupulous as many think he is, he could have easily just responded to Jon Toner's question with straightforward denial.

Then what? Would anyone who didn't believe him before then accept his answer? With the possible exception of Jon Toner and the others who were taking a wait-and-see approach, I think the answer is a clear no. So he was dam-ed if he did and dam-ed if he didn't.

ozstamps' reputation on FlyerTalk will be forever tainted by this, whether he is guilty or not. If he did what he is accused of, then he earned it, but it still is no light sentence.

I disagree that the Sentence is not a light one.

Ozstamps used multiple personalite to further his own agenda and to bolster his arguments. This type of behavoir is unacceptable. There is no difference between what Ozstamps has done and a Teenager posting here and pretending to be a frequent flier.

I remind you all that "MolsonMiler" claimed to be a lawyer and provided "Legal Advise". This cannot be tolerated.

I posted this in another thread, I think it is pertinent here as well:

WE, AS A COMMUNITY, MUST CONTINUE TO INFORM NEW MEMBERS THAT OZSTAMPS HAS VIOLATED THE SPIRIT OF THIS COMMUNITY. WE MUST DO THIS SO THAT NO NEW MEMBERS WILL BE LOOK AT HIS POST COUNT AND THINK THAT HE HAS CREDABILITY!