Ladies and Gentlemen,

this is a message from FlyerTalk, the deal we have is to talk travel and travel related topics. Recess is over. Please get back to travel talk, or threads like these will have to be shut down.

Thank you for your help in keeping this board a great place to talk travel

dimples wrote: That is exactly what we are trying to do. Perhaps you don't know the whole story? If you would like to, please call me. Randy Petersen has my number.

And by the way, I think it would be nice if you had a insideflyer.com, webflyer.com or flyertalk.com email address in your profile so that readers could be sure you work for FlyerTalk.

Thank You.

I don't recommend that FlyerTalk-dimples should really shut this, and other threads dealing with this 'trust'-crisis situation, down. I think the majority of the board-participants is actually doing a good (in my opinion some times exaggerated) self-cleaning job right now.

Two years ago, it was entirely due to the engagement of a few members (under the 'Sherlock Holmes leadership of 'Merry Flyer' then, and without any help/support from Flyertalk) that we did out a dangerous very knowleadgable Flyertalker posting under a wrong (his reputated father's) 'handle' and by this, not only misleading FlyerTalk-colleagues but also proposing 'fake FlyerTalk-meetings' at specific places (New Year's eve parties in Paris, University meetings in Wisconsin, etc. etc.). Some possible 'big' scams were avoided by this outing.

I understand, that some reputated Flyertalkers (pg, others) start asking, why we (Rudi, other oldies) do/did not protest the same way as we do now agaings ozstamps practises with fake handles janejet/molsonmiles, when others used 'fake' handles (like pff et al). And it was me, that, in a recent email exchange with pg said, that when I finally got to know who pff is/was, I and some other 'oldies' did try to moderate/'eliminate' pff afterwards.

But there are, in my judgement, big differences between obvious fake handles (which I don't support unless they provide, in my judgement, just amusing contributions like arturo) like pff, notsonewhere, other 'fake' akas and janejet/molsonmiles (and other ozstamps-creations?): The pff's et al couldn't be misunderstood as real/live personalities; janejet/molsonmiles fooled me (and probably most others here) as being real, when they were just created to support their originator (ozstamps), and to attack people the creator (ozstamps) wanted to 'humiliate'. Plus in add, ozstamps when disliking other fake akas publicly here declared, that he would never hide himself behind fake aka's (which turned out be not the truth at all).

I don't remember any lies of other fake or real Flyertalkers questioning ozstamps practise here.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 12-05-2000).]

One BIG problem with fake handles like Pfp etc are that they openly personally attack other FlyerTalkers. My recollection is that the vast majority of people who are very outspoken now were silent then. If some (like Rudi) were working behind the scenes my apologies to them. And some others also openly spoke out against Pfp then, but we were a very small minority. So Rudi - what is the identity of Pfp?

To me the big difference is the relentless personal attacks by such handles.

.

Major thanks to Jon Toner. It took a lot of guts to start this thread. I presume you have your answer(s) by now?

Dimples: I am personally offended you (or anyone else at webflyer) would consider such a tactic as to threaten blatant censorship on this issue.

dgolds: Just want to say hi...

Sadly, onefreeman, I believe I do.

No disrespect intended to anyone, but I really had hoped that these allegations proved baseless.


------------------
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Many years ago, somewhere in the '60s, I first heard a line in a Dillon (ok, Dylan) song (don't even know the name of the song) which has been haunting me ever since. It went like this, She knows too much to argue or to judge.

I still don't know who she is or was or what the line really meant, but the line's rightness has suspended itself there in my mind, demanding to be heard, challenging me to grow, for longer than I suspect that most of you have been alive.

As I grow older and (prayerfully) wiser, I begin to catch slender slivers of it's meaning, that really do ring true in my heart. One of my most basic steps toward understanding is that we all operate on our own highest level, and that our highest level shifts up and down from day to day. Hopefully, we are moving continually (if not steadily) upward in our levels. Most of our understanding is a gift of our well-placed circumstances, not soley the fruit of our own intentional labors.

As I move slowly, painfully and precariously up the ladder of understanding, it is often embarrassing and humiliating to honestly look back on where I was in the past, even so recently as a year ago. I then have to make a huge and difficult choice--do I become upset at the shallowness of the person I used to be, or am I joyful that I have grown so far beyond that space?

I know for sure that I am far too imperfect to judge others for their failures. The only honorable goal I can seek is to be the very best, most honest, fairest, kindest, generous and considerate human being that I can be and I honestly know that I always fall short of that mark, but I keep trying. I still have a lot of work to do dealing with the plank in my own eye, before I'll be in a position to think about removing the speck from my neighbor's eye.

Curiously it was just as I was reading this thread today and thinking (I am ashamed to say) that perhaps I might possibly be a little more generous and forgiving than someone else, that I received a phone call from a friend on the East Coast. He wanted to let me know that he might not be available for a while because he had decided that the thing that that would make him happiest this holiday season would be to give the gift of life. He is going into the hospital to donate a kidney, not to a relative or friend but to a kidney bank, to save the life of a stranger. Obviously, I have a long , long way to go before I am in a position to judge anyone's motives.

As almost all of you all know, I am a great believer in Karma and I think this phone call was Karma's way of putting me in my place. I am no where near as far along the developmental line as I would wish and still have a long, long way to go before, "I know too much to argue or to judge".



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 12-06-2000).]

Well put Punki. Nice thoughts to live by. Thank you for sharing this honest sentiment.

Think I need to look in the mirror a bit more sometimes too before laying into others. Perspective is an enlightening concept.

C'mon wisdom, quit playing hard to get.

Mike

[This message has been edited by mjm (edited 12-06-2000).]

You know what they say-the only thing WORSE than being talked about is NOT being talked about!
We are fuelling the fire.
Ozstamps always has something to say about ANYTHING.notching up posts to get to some high pinnacle of success in the flyertalk community. all of a sudden
S I L E N C E
enough said eh?

Hello All,

While I hope that this thread does not spawn an abundance of similar threads, I see absolutely nothing wrong with "fueling" this particular fire. It is refreshing and invigorating to see so many desiring simple consistency and honor. Ain't nothin' wrong with that, imho.

Thank you, JT, for yet another unbiased and neutral thread. Thank you everyone for your own opinions and -of course- flying tips.

-KP

PS: dimples - spurious, at best.

Great post Punki. Also commendable is the fact that you were able to discern the lyrics of a Bob Dylan song

Alas - still no answer to my question.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 12-06-2000).]

Oops. I really am getting old.

Punki: I was hoping you'd post something wise and wonderful here and you far surpassed my expectations. You're awesome.

Well said Punki.
As a small gift of my appreciation I give you the name of the song.
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
and the complete stanza


[This message has been edited by magic111 (edited 12-06-2000).]

The previous verse of the same song may be of particular interest:


... thanks Punki.