Today was the day...(The Michael Roberts/ExpressJet Story)
Oct 23, 2010, 1:13 pm
#421
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Let's take it from the top.
The OP's proposition may be summed up as, "Passing through WBI is like a virtual strip search." Therefore, my working definition of a virtual strip search is this:
coerced removal of the visual barrier between clothing and flesh
by means other than physical undressing for the purpose of unfettered inspection.
by means other than physical undressing for the purpose of unfettered inspection.
Make sense now, raehl311?
Last edited by essxjay; Oct 23, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Oct 23, 2010, 3:17 pm
#422
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Oct 23, 2010, 8:01 pm
#424
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Thank you all. This thread is amazing! No way to read it all, but thanks for all the support. Please listen to this and pass it to the four winds. We're going to wrap this up very soon.
Sorry we kept interrupting each other in the interview - bit of a phone lag.
-m.
Sorry we kept interrupting each other in the interview - bit of a phone lag.
-m.
Oct 23, 2010, 8:09 pm
#425
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Thank you all. This thread is amazing! No way to read it all, but thanks for all the support. Please listen to this and pass it to the four winds. We're going to wrap this up very soon.
Sorry we kept interrupting each other in the interview - bit of a phone lag.
-m.
Sorry we kept interrupting each other in the interview - bit of a phone lag.
-m.
Oct 23, 2010, 9:01 pm
#426
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Mr. Roberts, you're my hero and you got some serious stones. This is an awesome interview. If I could ask one thing in your lawsuit, is please take this all the way to a judge. We need a court ruling on this. The ACLU has dropped a lot when it got TSA to give in a bit. This is too important for that to happen.
I'm willing to donate to a legal fund should one set up. I'll put my money where my support and mouth is. ^
Oct 23, 2010, 10:02 pm
#427
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All we need are a few more flight crew to take a similar stand, with strong backing from the unions, and the media spotlight will hit the TSA and DHS like rays through a magnifying glass. Pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, union leaders: who's with Michael?
Oct 24, 2010, 1:18 am
#428
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The end result is still the same: innocent people having their breasts and genitals viewed by strangers in a peep show booth. The pornoscope REMOVES the clothing. If not, why is it possible for the peep show attendant to see testicles, nipples and vulvae?
Oct 24, 2010, 9:11 am
#429
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Oct 24, 2010, 11:05 am
#431
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If TSA had, at any time, directly thwarted a terrorist from bringing down a US airliner, that would have immediately been communicated to the NSC and Congress, and eventually to the public. TSA would have worn out their fax machines and brought the internet to a standstill sending out press releases and patting themselves on the back.
Oct 24, 2010, 1:04 pm
#432
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If TSA had, at any time, directly thwarted a terrorist from bringing down a US airliner, that would have immediately been communicated to the NSC and Congress, and eventually to the public. TSA would have worn out their fax machines and brought the internet to a standstill sending out press releases and patting themselves on the back.
Oct 24, 2010, 1:10 pm
#433
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If TSA had, at any time, directly thwarted a terrorist from bringing down a US airliner, that would have immediately been communicated to the NSC and Congress, and eventually to the public. TSA would have worn out their fax machines and brought the internet to a standstill sending out press releases and patting themselves on the back.
Oct 24, 2010, 2:46 pm
#434
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Unfortunately, poster TSORon has richly illustrated in this thread exactly what so many people dislike about screeners and the TSA as a whole. The burden is not on the public to avoid air travel - it's on the government not to overreach in turning this country into a police state. This is as it has been since the inception of the nation. We have a Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. for a reason, and those who don't like that fact are free to make accommodations to avoid it - they shouldn't be asking us to subvert our freedoms to suit their preferences.
The most obvious pitfall is that of the slippery slope - if we let these misguided folks overtake air travel what will be next? No reasonable person should allow government to dictate where s/he can go, when, and under what circumstances. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly under the influence of the same, pardon me, element of fascism that unfortunately is becoming all too common in our public discourse these days.
I'd bother to refute some opposing points, along with raehl's, if their arguments didn't conveniently omit pertinent questions from others ("how many screenings have you personally been subject to," etc.) alternating with rude, dismissive comments directed towards other posters who disagree with them. OK, just this one:
<Lebowski> That's like, your opinion, man. </Lebowski> I have the right - not the privilege, the right - to dictate who sees my person and under what conditions, and under no circumstances will that right pass to others without my express permission. As it's clear from a cursory check of FT and the larger Internet these days that I'm hardly alone in that sentiment, it's abundantly clear the TSA is going to have its hands full in defending this gross abuse of its authority in the months ahead.
Further reasons our distrust is justified: The machines that supposedly can't save images did exactly that, to the tune of tens of thousands of scans saved. These naked photos of law-abiding Americans accused of no crimes were taken in courthouses in Florida and D.C.:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_1...11-501465.html
I simply can't believe any reasonable person would allow an underage child to step foot in one of these machines. To behave otherwise is irresponsible at best.
Furthermore, the entire setup is a charade, since cargo coming into this country and traveling on passenger jets isn't even disassembled and x-rayed.
Link: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...cmp=networkbar
What little security does occur has been outsourced to private companies not accountable to the public. Does the phrase "Halliburton-like boondoggle" register with anyone? Why should private corporations get off scot-free while I'm personally having to decide between two unacceptable violations of privacy against my person every time I want to depart my area code? It's an outrage.
*Edited to add: Speaking of boondoggle, the reason these machines are being installed in the first place has everything to do with the fact that Bush Administration Homeland Security chair Michael Chertoff has a direct financial interest in them. Here's just one link, among the thousands that pop up when you Google "Chertoff body scanner." Again. Where is the public uprising?..
Three cheers for Mr. Roberts, who's a real patriot in my book, and I join others in pledging to dedicate whatever I can spare of my time and income towards the cause of forcing the TSA and other related agencies to remember that they serve the public - NOT the other way round.
The most obvious pitfall is that of the slippery slope - if we let these misguided folks overtake air travel what will be next? No reasonable person should allow government to dictate where s/he can go, when, and under what circumstances. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly under the influence of the same, pardon me, element of fascism that unfortunately is becoming all too common in our public discourse these days.
I'd bother to refute some opposing points, along with raehl's, if their arguments didn't conveniently omit pertinent questions from others ("how many screenings have you personally been subject to," etc.) alternating with rude, dismissive comments directed towards other posters who disagree with them. OK, just this one:
But I also think all this hullabaloo over "OH MY GOD NUDITY!" is a silly distraction from the real problems. It's a whole lot of fear about something that isn't going to cause you any harm whatsoever.
Further reasons our distrust is justified: The machines that supposedly can't save images did exactly that, to the tune of tens of thousands of scans saved. These naked photos of law-abiding Americans accused of no crimes were taken in courthouses in Florida and D.C.:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_1...11-501465.html
I simply can't believe any reasonable person would allow an underage child to step foot in one of these machines. To behave otherwise is irresponsible at best.
Furthermore, the entire setup is a charade, since cargo coming into this country and traveling on passenger jets isn't even disassembled and x-rayed.
Link: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...cmp=networkbar
What little security does occur has been outsourced to private companies not accountable to the public. Does the phrase "Halliburton-like boondoggle" register with anyone? Why should private corporations get off scot-free while I'm personally having to decide between two unacceptable violations of privacy against my person every time I want to depart my area code? It's an outrage.
*Edited to add: Speaking of boondoggle, the reason these machines are being installed in the first place has everything to do with the fact that Bush Administration Homeland Security chair Michael Chertoff has a direct financial interest in them. Here's just one link, among the thousands that pop up when you Google "Chertoff body scanner." Again. Where is the public uprising?..
Three cheers for Mr. Roberts, who's a real patriot in my book, and I join others in pledging to dedicate whatever I can spare of my time and income towards the cause of forcing the TSA and other related agencies to remember that they serve the public - NOT the other way round.
Last edited by divemistressofthedark; Oct 24, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Oct 24, 2010, 3:28 pm
#435
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 39
+1 ^
Mr. Roberts, you're my hero and you got some serious stones. This is an awesome interview. If I could ask one thing in your lawsuit, is please take this all the way to a judge. We need a court ruling on this. The ACLU has dropped a lot when it got TSA to give in a bit. This is too important for that to happen.
I'm willing to donate to a legal fund should one set up. I'll put my money where my support and mouth is. ^
Mr. Roberts, you're my hero and you got some serious stones. This is an awesome interview. If I could ask one thing in your lawsuit, is please take this all the way to a judge. We need a court ruling on this. The ACLU has dropped a lot when it got TSA to give in a bit. This is too important for that to happen.
I'm willing to donate to a legal fund should one set up. I'll put my money where my support and mouth is. ^
Thanks about the money, too. The attorneys have some ideas to set something up, and we'll probably be talking about that tomorrow or sometime soon.
I'm a bit late to the party here, but I salute you as well. Those who take the greatest risks reap the greatest rewards, and I hope that your story brings great success, both to you personally and to the fight against today's TSA.
All we need are a few more flight crew to take a similar stand, with strong backing from the unions, and the media spotlight will hit the TSA and DHS like rays through a magnifying glass. Pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, union leaders: who's with Michael?
All we need are a few more flight crew to take a similar stand, with strong backing from the unions, and the media spotlight will hit the TSA and DHS like rays through a magnifying glass. Pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, union leaders: who's with Michael?
Interesting incident two days after Michael Roberts "went public" with his objection to the TSA body scan. I flew out of the San Jose airport yesterday evening. It's the first time I've flown from there since early last year, and since that time, they have installed the body scan equipment. With the body scan equipment up and running, believe it or not, EVERYONE is directed to go through it, even though the conventional metal detector is still there and operational.
When I got into the line, it was approximately 4:45 PM. There were about 18 men and one or two women. I noticed as soon as I got to the back of the line that two guys at the front at almost the same time refused to go through the body scan. It didn't look like either of them knew each other, so I guessed that this wasn't some type of set-up. The TSA attendant said they could "opt-out," but they would have to go through the walk-through metal detector and then get patted-down. Both agreed to do that. Another guy right after them "opted" to do the same. Then, the TSA attendant announced to everyone else that they could opt-out if they were willing to go through the same procedure (metal detector, then pat-down).
After those two guys made their refusal, perhaps half of the guys behind them (including me) opt-ed out of the body scan. Then, there were so many men who opted out, there weren't enough TSA people to do the pat downs quickly enough, and the rest of us merely went through the metal detectors and went to our gates. It was also interesting to note that none of the women opted out, and a few of the men who didn't object made a big show of getting scanned. (Not sure if this was a spit-in-the-eye to those who opted out.)
I think the lesson learned here is that if enough people opt-out of the body scan, there will simply be too few TSA attendants to do all of the pat-downs, and that will allow many of us to simply go through the metal detector as we have for the past several years. I was fully prepared before being patted-down to stop the TSA attendant first in order to get his name and employee number and to inform him that if he did anything that I perceived to be invasive, I was going to have a lawyer file a formal complaint with TSA against him.
When I got into the line, it was approximately 4:45 PM. There were about 18 men and one or two women. I noticed as soon as I got to the back of the line that two guys at the front at almost the same time refused to go through the body scan. It didn't look like either of them knew each other, so I guessed that this wasn't some type of set-up. The TSA attendant said they could "opt-out," but they would have to go through the walk-through metal detector and then get patted-down. Both agreed to do that. Another guy right after them "opted" to do the same. Then, the TSA attendant announced to everyone else that they could opt-out if they were willing to go through the same procedure (metal detector, then pat-down).
After those two guys made their refusal, perhaps half of the guys behind them (including me) opt-ed out of the body scan. Then, there were so many men who opted out, there weren't enough TSA people to do the pat downs quickly enough, and the rest of us merely went through the metal detectors and went to our gates. It was also interesting to note that none of the women opted out, and a few of the men who didn't object made a big show of getting scanned. (Not sure if this was a spit-in-the-eye to those who opted out.)
I think the lesson learned here is that if enough people opt-out of the body scan, there will simply be too few TSA attendants to do all of the pat-downs, and that will allow many of us to simply go through the metal detector as we have for the past several years. I was fully prepared before being patted-down to stop the TSA attendant first in order to get his name and employee number and to inform him that if he did anything that I perceived to be invasive, I was going to have a lawyer file a formal complaint with TSA against him.
1. Do not allow federal security agents to place their hands on you. Your body belongs to you, not them.
2. Do not allow federal security agents to see beneath your clothing. Your body belongs to you, not them.
3. Study, reflect, and strive to understand what is going on here. I will help, if I am able, in the days ahead to make it a little more clear. But you must stop watching American Idol, put the game controller down, and pay attention (that part was for my beloved coworkers in familiar jest - not you guys).