Pax lights fireworks on NW AMS-DTW flight
Dec 27, 2009, 10:11 am
#301
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Dec 27, 2009, 10:12 am
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That there haven't been more aviation-related deaths due to criminal activity in the past several years is a product largely of: the general kind of incompetence that is the measure of the people attracted to criminal activity; and the lack of willing, suicidal persons to target aviation-related targets.
Dec 27, 2009, 10:14 am
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Dec 27, 2009, 10:15 am
#304
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Don't underestimate their incompetence either. While the criminals do get lucky too often, they often fail due to incompetence. This person -- if he studied engineering -- is certainly a rather stupid engineer who would make for even a miserable student of even a good high school chemistry class.
That there haven't been more aviation-related deaths due to criminal activity in the past several years is a product largely of: the general kind of incompetence that is the measure of the people attracted to criminal activity; and the lack of willing, suicidal persons to target aviation-related targets.
That there haven't been more aviation-related deaths due to criminal activity in the past several years is a product largely of: the general kind of incompetence that is the measure of the people attracted to criminal activity; and the lack of willing, suicidal persons to target aviation-related targets.
ETA: If you think about it, this is the bomb maker's worst nightmare...the device failed and is in the hands of the Feds, the MO is clear, and the perp is apparently singing like a canary.
Last edited by Bonehead; Dec 27, 2009 at 10:24 am
Dec 27, 2009, 10:22 am
#305
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Ok time for School, teacher. Is the guy using a sparkler as a back up to the electric igniter?
Dec 27, 2009, 10:32 am
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According to my earlier, very brief (less than 5 minute) conversation, he said to think of it as similar to trying to make diesel fuel explode - it needs a large amount of heat rapidly applied (you can throw a box of lit matches in a pool of diesel and it will not ignite), or significant pressure applied in a short period of time (hence the use of either a flame- or electrically-ignited blasting device for PETN or the compression forces found in a diesel engine). Of course, this was a layman-level conversation, no deep scientific/mathematical conversations as he was on his way to work for the day.
I think, in this case, based on the video poster's comments, that he was using the sparkler as the motive force to light the igniter, which provided the shock force to initiate the PETN explosion.
Dec 27, 2009, 10:36 am
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I would have to have a much longer conversation with my EOD friend about that one. I will not claim to be an explosives expert, merely that I called a buddy of mine that works EOD for a living.
According to my earlier, very brief (less than 5 minute) conversation, he said to think of it as similar to trying to make diesel fuel explode - it needs a large amount of heat rapidly applied (you can throw a box of lit matches in a pool of diesel and it will not ignite), or significant pressure applied in a short period of time (hence the use of either a flame- or electrically-ignited blasting device for PETN or the compression forces found in a diesel engine). Of course, this was a layman-level conversation, no deep scientific/mathematical conversations as he was on his way to work for the day.
I think, in this case, based on the video poster's comments, that he was using the sparkler as the motive force to light the igniter, which provided the shock force to initiate the PETN explosion.
According to my earlier, very brief (less than 5 minute) conversation, he said to think of it as similar to trying to make diesel fuel explode - it needs a large amount of heat rapidly applied (you can throw a box of lit matches in a pool of diesel and it will not ignite), or significant pressure applied in a short period of time (hence the use of either a flame- or electrically-ignited blasting device for PETN or the compression forces found in a diesel engine). Of course, this was a layman-level conversation, no deep scientific/mathematical conversations as he was on his way to work for the day.
I think, in this case, based on the video poster's comments, that he was using the sparkler as the motive force to light the igniter, which provided the shock force to initiate the PETN explosion.
Dec 27, 2009, 10:47 am
#308
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"From Canada or Mexico, carry-on luggage will also be searched at the departure gate. Transport Canada has limited the number of carry-on luggage to one (1) through the security checkpoint for passengers traveling from Canada to the United States. To minimize boarding delays, passengers are encouraged to check all their luggage. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air will waive baggage fees for items checked as baggage that the passenger otherwise would have taken aboard as carry-on baggage from Canada or Mexico."
So at least Alaska Air won't gouge passengers under the circumstances.
Dec 27, 2009, 10:48 am
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It's all a moot point, since "the system worked," according to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano.
Dec 27, 2009, 10:55 am
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It sounds like a reasonably complex "device" (if that's what you can call PETN in a condom), complete with liquid detonator in a syringe. Several news reports (which I've quoted) said that we got lucky this time, perhaps because the detonator wasn't injected quite right. I wouldn't become too sanguine about this failure...these guys are relentless.
ETA: If you think about it, this is the bomb maker's worst nightmare...the device failed and is in the hands of the Feds, the MO is clear, and the perp is apparently singing like a canary.
ETA: If you think about it, this is the bomb maker's worst nightmare...the device failed and is in the hands of the Feds, the MO is clear, and the perp is apparently singing like a canary.
Dec 27, 2009, 11:01 am
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It's all a moot point, since "the system worked," according to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano.
If "the system worked" as intended, then all these rushed "security" changes wouldn't be "necessary" to prevent whatever "the system worked" to prevent with regard to this incident.
Dec 27, 2009, 11:01 am
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According to the Alaska Airlines website:
"From Canada or Mexico, carry-on luggage will also be searched at the departure gate. Transport Canada has limited the number of carry-on luggage to one (1) through the security checkpoint for passengers traveling from Canada to the United States. To minimize boarding delays, passengers are encouraged to check all their luggage. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air will waive baggage fees for items checked as baggage that the passenger otherwise would have taken aboard as carry-on baggage from Canada or Mexico."
So at least Alaska Air won't gouge passengers under the circumstances.
"From Canada or Mexico, carry-on luggage will also be searched at the departure gate. Transport Canada has limited the number of carry-on luggage to one (1) through the security checkpoint for passengers traveling from Canada to the United States. To minimize boarding delays, passengers are encouraged to check all their luggage. Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air will waive baggage fees for items checked as baggage that the passenger otherwise would have taken aboard as carry-on baggage from Canada or Mexico."
So at least Alaska Air won't gouge passengers under the circumstances.
Dec 27, 2009, 11:03 am
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An interesting article in the Independent, with one excerpt below:
The high explosive Abdulmutallab used was identified by the FBI as Pentaerythritol, better known as PETN – a major component of Semtex. He injected a detonating liquid into the PETN with a syringe, but the bomb failed to explode.
The revelation of Abdulmutallab's background has confounded terror experts. Dr Magnus Ranstorp of the Center for Asymmetric Threat Studies at the Swedish National Defence College said that the attempted bombing "didn't square".
"On the one hand, it seems he's been on the terror watch list but not on the no-fly list," he said. "That doesn't square because the American Department for Homeland Security has pretty stringent data-mining capability. I don't understand how he had a valid visa if he was known on the terror watch list.
"Why didn't he go to the toilets to detonate the bomb? Why would he try to set it off 20 minutes before he's going to land? It could probably have been successful had the person not been amateurish. I think this is a sign that it's much more difficult now for al-Qa'ida to pull off something serious."
Chaim Koppel, a security consultant, added: "I think the explosive was supposed to go bang rather than just start a fire. The terrorists probably didn't mix it well enough. Maybe they didn't do enough practice runs, but the more the guy is trained, the more exposed he is to MI5, MI6, the FBI and other security agencies, so he probably didn't receive enough training."
The high explosive Abdulmutallab used was identified by the FBI as Pentaerythritol, better known as PETN – a major component of Semtex. He injected a detonating liquid into the PETN with a syringe, but the bomb failed to explode.
The revelation of Abdulmutallab's background has confounded terror experts. Dr Magnus Ranstorp of the Center for Asymmetric Threat Studies at the Swedish National Defence College said that the attempted bombing "didn't square".
"On the one hand, it seems he's been on the terror watch list but not on the no-fly list," he said. "That doesn't square because the American Department for Homeland Security has pretty stringent data-mining capability. I don't understand how he had a valid visa if he was known on the terror watch list.
"Why didn't he go to the toilets to detonate the bomb? Why would he try to set it off 20 minutes before he's going to land? It could probably have been successful had the person not been amateurish. I think this is a sign that it's much more difficult now for al-Qa'ida to pull off something serious."
Chaim Koppel, a security consultant, added: "I think the explosive was supposed to go bang rather than just start a fire. The terrorists probably didn't mix it well enough. Maybe they didn't do enough practice runs, but the more the guy is trained, the more exposed he is to MI5, MI6, the FBI and other security agencies, so he probably didn't receive enough training."
Dec 27, 2009, 11:20 am
#314
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I would have to have a much longer conversation with my EOD friend about that one. I will not claim to be an explosives expert, merely that I called a buddy of mine that works EOD for a living.
According to my earlier, very brief (less than 5 minute) conversation, he said to think of it as similar to trying to make diesel fuel explode - it needs a large amount of heat rapidly applied (you can throw a box of lit matches in a pool of diesel and it will not ignite), or significant pressure applied in a short period of time (hence the use of either a flame- or electrically-ignited blasting device for PETN or the compression forces found in a diesel engine). Of course, this was a layman-level conversation, no deep scientific/mathematical conversations as he was on his way to work for the day.
I think, in this case, based on the video poster's comments, that he was using the sparkler as the motive force to light the igniter, which provided the shock force to initiate the PETN explosion.
According to my earlier, very brief (less than 5 minute) conversation, he said to think of it as similar to trying to make diesel fuel explode - it needs a large amount of heat rapidly applied (you can throw a box of lit matches in a pool of diesel and it will not ignite), or significant pressure applied in a short period of time (hence the use of either a flame- or electrically-ignited blasting device for PETN or the compression forces found in a diesel engine). Of course, this was a layman-level conversation, no deep scientific/mathematical conversations as he was on his way to work for the day.
I think, in this case, based on the video poster's comments, that he was using the sparkler as the motive force to light the igniter, which provided the shock force to initiate the PETN explosion.
Hence people like Richard Reid really had next to no chance of success.
Assuming--for the sake of argument--this guy had a sensitive peroxide explosive in his syringe, I suppose he could have used that as a detonator. Still not something I'd as a would-be suicide bomber or a bomb maker want to trust as to working even a reasonable % of the time.
Dec 27, 2009, 11:26 am
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So you think that they really didn't want the thing to work? I think that an A333 exploding on final to DTW would cause a somewhat larger "disruption" than we are seeing.