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-   -   Complaints about Customs (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/canada/810328-complaints-about-customs.html)

Q Shoe Guy Apr 15, 2008 7:12 pm

Thanks KVS^

CBSAguy Apr 15, 2008 7:20 pm


Originally Posted by KVS (Post 9579169)
Here is the CIC manual: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...enf/enf04e.pdf
9. Examining Canadian citizens at ports of entry

9.1. The right to come into Canada
A Canadian citizen within the meaning of the Citizenship Act has a right to enter and
remain in Canada pursuant to A19(1).
9.2. Examination of Canadian citizens
A15(1) provides for an officer to proceed with an examination where a person makes an
application to the officer in accordance with the Act.
R28(b) provides that a person seeking to enter Canada is making an application.
Additionally, A18(1) requires every person seeking to enter Canada to appear for an
examination to determine whether they have the right to enter Canada or may be
authorized to enter and remain in Canada. This includes Canadian citizens.
A CBSA officer at Immigration Secondary will normally examine a Canadian citizen only
when the CBSA officer at PIL doubts the person’s citizenship. A CBSA officer at a port of
entry should examine Canadian citizens as expeditiously as possible. Once the officer
establishes that a person is a Canadian citizen, the examination should end and the
person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay.
It is not appropriate for
CBSA Immigration Secondary officers to elicit further personal information from a
Canadian citizen.

Canadian citizens may be asked to willingly provide additional information if it will assist
an officer in determining the admissibility of an accompanying foreign national.
9.3. Determining Canadian citizenship
The following documents are acceptable proof of Canadian citizenship:
• Canadian passport;
• Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (both large and pocket or wallet size; the smaller
form now exists in two versions: one with a 44mm x 57mm (1 ¾” x 2 ¼”) photograph,
and the other with a 35mm X 53mm (1 3/8" X 2 1/16") photograph);
• Canadian Emergency Passport (a CBSA officer at PIL will automatically refer for
secondary examination a person in possession of a Canadian Emergency Passport.
Once they have verified the person's identity, the CBSA officer at Immigration
Secondary retains the passport and forwards it to the Passport Office, Foreign Affairs
Canada, Ottawa);
• Certificate of Naturalization;
• Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad; and
• Certificate of Retention of Canadian Citizenship.
A Canadian provincial birth certificate is a good indicator of Canadian citizenship, but
does not contain a photograph. The CBSA officer must therefore be satisfied that the
person is the rightful holder.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...s/op/op16e.pdf

5.3. Canadian citizens and registered Indians: Entry to Canada
Canadian citizens and registered Indians have the right to enter Canada and are therefore not
subject to any specified documentary requirements at any point of entry.
However, they must be able to satisfy an examining officer that they are citizens of Canada or
registered Indians before they may exercise their right to enter.
This can be done by presenting travel or status documents, or secondary identity documents,
verbally or through a combination of such evidence.
Canadian passports, citizenship cards and birth certificates are some of the documents that are
presented to satisfy examining officers at ports of entry that the holders are citizens of Canada.
The Certificate of Indian Status is the document used to demonstrate that the holder is registered
as an Indian under the Indian Act.

"It is not appropriate for CBSA Immigration Secondary officers to elicit further personal information from a Canadian citizen."

Immigration Secondary is not the Primary Inspection Line, nor Customs Secondary. Questions asked of Canadian citizens at primary/secondary are related to admissibility of goods. I will admit that I have heard some ridiculous questions being asked on occasion by some colleagues and it does make me cringe. At the same time, though, if I had someone returning from a 2-day trip halfway around the world who marked "personal" as his reason for travel, I would likely ask questions to determine how the trip was financed, why he went, etc. Was he sent to pick up two bags of cocaine and given a short holiday as a bonus? It happens quite frequently. The admissibility of the Canadian citizen is not being called into question just because I'm asking him a question that may also be appropriate to ask a visitor.

Denizen Apr 15, 2008 7:25 pm


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579294)
"It is not appropriate for CBSA Immigration Secondary officers to elicit further personal information from a Canadian citizen."

Immigration Secondary is not the Primary Inspection Line, nor Customs Secondary. Questions asked of Canadian citizens at primary/secondary are related to admissibility of goods. I will admit that I have heard some ridiculous questions being asked on occasion by some colleagues and it does make me cringe. At the same time, though, if I had someone returning from a 2-day trip halfway around the world who marked "personal" as his reason for travel, I would likely ask questions to determine how the trip was financed, why he went, etc. Was he sent to pick up two bags of cocaine and given a short holiday as a bonus? It happens quite frequently. The admissibility of the Canadian citizen is not being called into question just because I'm asking him a question that may also be appropriate to ask a visitor.

There you go again, CSBAguy - you are cherry-picking again. You should be reading the line above that which says " Once the officer
establishes that a person is a Canadian citizen, the examination should end and the person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay" so there would not be a Secondary examination.

KVS Apr 15, 2008 7:28 pm


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579294)
Questions asked of Canadian citizens at primary/secondary are related to admissibility of goods.

And how, exactly, is it possible to determine that? Do PIL agents make any indication of whether each specific question relates to the admissibility of a person (immigration) or the goods (customs)?

Simon Apr 15, 2008 7:28 pm

"A CBSA officer at a port of
entry should examine Canadian citizens as expeditiously as possible. Once the officer
establishes that a person is a Canadian citizen, the examination should end and the
person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay."

Nothing about secondary there, it's in the next sentence, which says that once the person hits secondary, no further questions should occur of a personal nature.

For primary:

Passport? Yes.
Valid passport? Yes.
Person in line = person in passport? Yes.

End of story. Examination should end.

CBSAguy Apr 15, 2008 7:32 pm


Originally Posted by Denizen (Post 9579326)
There you go again, CSBAguy - you are cherry-picking again. You should be reading the line above that which says " Once the officer
establishes that a person is a Canadian citizen, the examination should end and the person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay" so there would not be a Secondary examination.

Correct. I've read that particular manual in its entirety. It is referring to the immigration portion of the examination. Once a person hands me his Canadian passport at primary, I scan it, take a brief look at it, and if I believe it to be a legitimate document, the immigration portion of the examination has been completed and that person is, indeed, then allowed entry to Canada. Any further questions I have for that person form part of my Customs examination. Whether or not he has drugs, undeclared cigarettes, firearms, etc. in his bags, he is allowed entry to Canada by right. This does not mean the Customs portion of the examination is over.

CBSAguy Apr 15, 2008 7:34 pm


Originally Posted by Simon (Post 9579348)
"A CBSA officer at a port of
entry should examine Canadian citizens as expeditiously as possible. Once the officer
establishes that a person is a Canadian citizen, the examination should end and the
person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay."

Nothing about secondary there, it's in the next sentence, which says that once the person hits secondary, no further questions should occur of a personal nature.

For primary:

Passport? Yes.
Valid passport? Yes.
Person in line = person in passport? Yes.

End of story. Examination should end.

Immigration portion of examination should end, yes.

Sanosuke Apr 15, 2008 7:34 pm

KVS, thanks for posting the link to the very comphrenesive document! A very informative read and enlightens one to what the _real_ duty of the CBSA officer should be when you present yourself at immigration.

I should point out something very noteworthy -- particularly the TELO codes. This is what they can use to refer you to secondary or to discreetly inform the next officer on the way out of what other action they should take, based on the T,E,L,O they use at PIL.

Sanosuke!

Simon Apr 15, 2008 7:41 pm


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579381)
Immigration portion of examination should end, yes.

"and the person should be allowed to enter Canada without further delay."

...not subjected to further questions about their job, their wife, their house, their age, what they studied at school, whether they are too old, whether it's too early to shop for Christmas decorations, etc.

It says on the form what we are declaring. If you want to ask about the goods, then ask us to present whatever we are carrying to secondary. They can then examine them and prove that they were bought out of the country and exceed their allowance if they are able.

Still no answer about why the level of questioning and unfriendliness compared to other countries.....

The Winger Apr 15, 2008 7:41 pm


Originally Posted by ylwae (Post 9578755)
Yes. I'll feeled very soothed the next time I have to waste time in secondary because I declared a small overage.

Or truthfully declared nothing at all which they never believe.........

The Winger Apr 15, 2008 7:45 pm

Thanks KVS for that brilliant bit of information.

Denizen Apr 15, 2008 7:52 pm


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579374)
Correct. I've read that particular manual in its entirety. It is referring to the immigration portion of the examination. Once a person hands me his Canadian passport at primary, I scan it, take a brief look at it, and if I believe it to be a legitimate document, the immigration portion of the examination has been completed and that person is, indeed, then allowed entry to Canada. Any further questions I have for that person form part of my Customs examination. Whether or not he has drugs, undeclared cigarettes, firearms, etc. in his bags, he is allowed entry to Canada by right. This does not mean the Customs portion of the examination is over.

I see, so questions such as " Who my wife went to Mexico with 4 mths ago" (as I mentioned last week) is an appropriate question to ask? No, it is not. If I have filled out the Customs form and stated that I don't have drugs, weapons etc then you may ask me verbally again "Do you have any drugs, weapons etc." but you can just take your nose out of our personal affairs - that is 'FISHING' and as you can see by all the people writing and reading this thread (I may be wrong but is this not the fastest growing thread?) a lot of Canadians don't like what you are doing.

Of course, we support stopping the entry of illegal drugs, weapons etc but the people doing that are a tiny proportion of travellers whereas the CBSA people treat ALL travellers as if we were criminals. Is this a misguided effort to treat all people equally? CBSA behaviour is actually WORSE than authoritarian states I have been to and most people on this thread agree - I keep on asking you, CBSAguy but you don't answer my simple question - Why are Canadian Customs DIFFERENT ( ie WORSE) than most other civilized countries?

propofol Apr 15, 2008 7:52 pm


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579294)
"It is not appropriate for CBSA Immigration Secondary officers to elicit further personal information from a Canadian citizen."

Immigration Secondary is not the Primary Inspection Line, nor Customs Secondary. Questions asked of Canadian citizens at primary/secondary are related to admissibility of goods. I will admit that I have heard some ridiculous questions being asked on occasion by some colleagues and it does make me cringe. At the same time, though, if I had someone returning from a 2-day trip halfway around the world who marked "personal" as his reason for travel, I would likely ask questions to determine how the trip was financed, why he went, etc. Was he sent to pick up two bags of cocaine and given a short holiday as a bonus? It happens quite frequently. The admissibility of the Canadian citizen is not being called into question just because I'm asking him a question that may also be appropriate to ask a visitor.

Why do you have to be so bloody obtuse about it? If you think he might of gone on a drug run, ask him "Do you have any illegal drugs on your person or in your baggage?" This may sound facile, but to think you (or any other CBSA officer) have the ability to catch someone on a lie, you're kidding yourself. You might get lucky, but that doesn't mean your intent was successful. Any drug mule is going to be prepared to answer that obvious set of questions. Is CBSA really that naïve?

CBSAguy Apr 15, 2008 7:55 pm


Originally Posted by Denizen (Post 9579464)
I see, so questions such as " Who my wife went to Mexico with 4 mths ago" (as I mentioned last week) is an appropriate question to ask? No, it is not. If I have filled out the Customs form and stated that I don't have drugs, weapons etc then you may ask me verbally again "Do you have any drugs, weapons etc." but you can just take your nose out of our personal affairs - that is 'FISHING' and as you can see by all the people writing and reading this thread (I may be wrong but is this not the fastest growing thread?) a lot of Canadians don't like what you are doing.

Of course, we support stopping the entry of illegal drugs, weapons etc but the people doing that are a tiny proportion of travellers whereas the CBSA people treat ALL travellers as if we were criminals. Is this a misguided effort to treat all people equally? CBSA behaviour is actually WORSE than authoritarian states I have been to and most people on this thread agree - I keep on asking you, CBSAguy but you don't answer my simple question - Why are Canadian Customs DIFFERENT ( ie WORSE) than most other civilized countries?

It's personal opinion. I've had the opposite experience, both currently and before I started working for CCRA/CBSA. Had a terrible experience in China and nothing but unpleasantness going to the US. Never had a problem coming back to Canada.

propofol Apr 15, 2008 7:56 pm

Thanks to KVS for the great find. Have saved a copy locally.


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