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-   -   Complaints about Customs (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/canada/810328-complaints-about-customs.html)

taupo Apr 16, 2008 6:29 pm


Originally Posted by Simon (Post 9583707)
The biggest problem most of us have is being delayed by inane, unnecessary, aggresive questions.

The process used in EU, Australia, etc. of green/red lanes would be a welcome change.

Simon

NZ has a simple system. You meet an immigration officer, proceed to Customs/Min of Ag/Fish once you have picked up checked bags. Customs/MAF have beagles sniffing bags in the baggage hall, the officers are very friendly, as are the dogs. Once handing over the Customs card you proceed to xray where your bag is checked. All very friendly and efficient.

cur Apr 16, 2008 11:13 pm


Originally Posted by taupo (Post 9585674)
NZ has a simple system. You meet an immigration officer, proceed to Customs/Min of Ag/Fish once you have picked up checked bags. Customs/MAF have beagles sniffing bags in the baggage hall, the officers are very friendly, as are the dogs. Once handing over the Customs card you proceed to xray where your bag is checked. All very friendly and efficient.

Disagree, I think Japan's system is the best. Walk through the health counter (close during flights from nations where infectious diseases are not a threat), go to IMM, get bags, you present all of your bags to a custom officer, and customs officer shows you the awesome list containing several diagrams of banned things (diagrams include: C-17 aircraft dropping a bomb, pineapples with bloody knives going through them, baby in empty mayonnaise bucket full of formaldehyde, etcetc :D).
You indicate that your luggage does not in fact contain a dead body, and then the customs officer asks you questions and looks at your paperwork. Whereas BS officers can be BS'd very easily and the physical system in Canada presents way too many loopholes (being able to say you will be in Canada for a week and you have nothing to declare even though you have 4 suitcases checked, changing the answer you gave the BSo at PIL when he sends you to IMM, being able to not declare food yet you checked a leaking box with soil coming out of the tears), the Japanese system is able to not only target people, but they goods they bring in as well.

The officers stand attentively waiting for pax which looks sharp, and because there are about 30 tables, there are never lineups. And like with BSOs at PIL back home, you can go 'shopping' for the Japanese equivalent of a white middle aged male BSO, but they seemingly switch the positions of officers after the pax approaches at random.

I also like Nicaragua's "green light means go, red light means haul your as..s in for customs inspection" system. If I were trying to smuggle drugs in there, I would not disguise my anxiety very well.

The worst is India where all bags have to be x-rayed BEFORE delivered. Seems like a good idea if it's done in a nation with a better reputation for transparency. And I'd have to say Canada is the next worse. While similar to the US, the Americans do it better because a CBP PIL officer is an integrated customs/immigration/food inspector who will perform their own secondary inspection of a pax if needed. Therefore, there are more officers at PIL helping legitimate pax, and there are way fewer spite referrals, leading to a greater amount of continuity, therefore increasing the security logic behind their system.


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579294)
"It is not appropriate for CBSA Immigration Secondary officers to elicit further personal information from a Canadian citizen."

Immigration Secondary is not the Primary Inspection Line, nor Customs Secondary. Questions asked of Canadian citizens at primary/secondary are related to admissibility of goods. I will admit that I have heard some ridiculous questions being asked on occasion by some colleagues and it does make me cringe. At the same time, though, if I had someone returning from a 2-day trip halfway around the world who marked "personal" as his reason for travel, I would likely ask questions to determine how the trip was financed, why he went, etc. Was he sent to pick up two bags of cocaine and given a short holiday as a bonus? It happens quite frequently. The admissibility of the Canadian citizen is not being called into question just because I'm asking him a question that may also be appropriate to ask a visitor.

Many things law enforcers do make sense in their own heads, such as your "send information from my search to CBSA intel who can then fwd it to CSIS" mentality. I can at least credit you for being well intentioned. That being said, your structure is a bit off IMO. Instead of saying "I would ask questions", you should approach this by saying "I will ask one question; LHR for a day!?", and then go from there. The progressive inspection, where you base further questions (if any) are based on the first response and other indicators such as physical, speech, etc.

If a drug trafficker paid my ticket through cash, my "why gone for two days" question would have been weak, and further questioning would be justified.
Being that I am legit, an exit that long would be legit, and the first question would be legit, so questions pertaining to how I paid my ticket, or any questions about my trip would be illogical. Maybe a "where did sleep?" just to see my response would be good. Although I know you are competent at the progressive PIL inspections, many of your colleagues are not.


Originally Posted by Nitehawk
I'm surprised how many of you have customs problems. I leave the country and return probably on average of once a month. often on business, sometimes for pleasure, sometimes to buy things like cars and boats. i'm young (24), and often travel alone. I've never been to secondary unless importing a vehicle, once they searched it, but they remained polite and never accused me of anything.

I find that they are great at land ports (except Coutts). I find that because they have very little control of their physical environment, BSOs there are a lot more careful in what manner they question. The officers that work at smaller ports are also much better; it seems the agency wouldn't appoint a weak BSO to work at a port employing just 10 staff, assigned with one other person for 10 hours a day/night at a remote crossing. I would imagine the dumb-areses would get washed out fast. The stupid &or young &or menopausal BSOs tend to be at ports where managers (and police) are within an arm's reach.


Originally Posted by ricktoronto (Post 9583213)
What does "roving" mean? Isn't it correct under both the Customs Act and the AML-ATF Act that roving plus subsequently questioning randomly on outbound flights is not allowed without reasonable grounds?

You are not allowed to intercept everyone outbound to ask questions about anything as to possible customs or money laundering infractions can you, without probable cause to do so, or are you saying that Charter violation would be allowed?

Ironically as to this whole arrivals discussion on the whole I find the YYZ arrivals CBSA to be quite polite and there is limited questioning away from the establishment of identity. I have on occasion, refused to answer questions apart from those quoting the same manual and didn't wind up in secondary, I merely pointed out they were inappropriate , asked the purpose of the questions relative to my Charter rights, and advised that my declaration of goods (usually nothing) was accurate.

I agree reasking the $10K question to those obviously in command of English is not necessary but it happens 100% of the time.

The rovers are so stupid. They'll position them right after pil to ask "more detailed questions". If the officer at PIL had no issue, why the hell would the rover?
Sometimes, they will wander around the baggage claim area. That's also stupid. If I were smuggling in drugs and had body language that would be considered suspect, I would hang out in the washroom until bags are dispensed. If a rover had issues with me, he would take my card, mark it, which would clearly indicate that I am going in for secondary. Then I wait 'til he is gone, I get my bags, rip any identifying figures on them, ditch the bags, and go into secondary. It opens way more loopholes than it attempts to close.

However, if you read the customs act, there is a section about how BSOs have authority in areas in which international flights are departing out of. Like it or not, Canada does have authority over exports.


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579196)
For the most part, I agree.

although we have clashed and i painted you as a troll, you seem like one of the more balanced BSOs.
it sucks that you work for such a crappy organization. at least in 10-15 years all the weak chains in the link will be attrition'd.


Originally Posted by CBSAguy (Post 9579209)
You're right, no one takes disciplinary action against me when I release overages 100 times a day, literally. It's called discretion and I use it daily.

And no one is drinking the abandoned liquor, but thank you for the ignorant comment.

i attempted (poorly) to refer to the BSO whose job is to physically pour the liquor down a sink drain.

Sopwith Apr 16, 2008 11:18 pm


Originally Posted by ricktoronto (Post 9583213)
What does "roving" mean? Isn't it correct under both the Customs Act and the AML-ATF Act that roving plus subsequently questioning randomly on outbound flights is not allowed without reasonable grounds?

You are not allowed to intercept everyone outbound to ask questions about anything as to possible customs or money laundering infractions can you, without probable cause to do so, or are you saying that Charter violation would be allowed?

On boarding a flight from YVR-LHR on Tuesday I noticed a CBSA agent standing about just after the gate. Thought it was curious, since I'd never seen them on the departure side before. After boarding I could see through a window in the terminal building that FOUR of them had intercepted a passenger and spent at least 10 minutes going through his stuff. They eventually cleared him and we departed.

What would trigger a search like this? I've never seen it before in Canada or the US, although most other countries I've been to will clear you on the way out. Perhaps we should be thankful for small mercies.

Sanosuke Apr 17, 2008 11:34 am


Originally Posted by cur (Post 9587033)
Disagree, I think Japan's system is the best. Walk through the health counter (close during flights from nations where infectious diseases are not a threat), go to IMM, get bags, you present all of your bags to a custom officer, and customs officer shows you the awesome list containing several diagrams of banned things (diagrams include: C-17 aircraft dropping a bomb, pineapples with bloody knives going through them, baby in empty mayonnaise bucket full of formaldehyde, etcetc :D).
You indicate that your luggage does not in fact contain a dead body, and then the customs officer asks you questions and looks at your paperwork. Whereas BS officers can be BS'd very easily and the physical system in Canada presents way too many loopholes (being able to say you will be in Canada for a week and you have nothing to declare even though you have 4 suitcases checked, changing the answer you gave the BSo at PIL when he sends you to IMM, being able to not declare food yet you checked a leaking box with soil coming out of the tears), the Japanese system is able to not only target people, but they goods they bring in as well.

The officers stand attentively waiting for pax which looks sharp, and because there are about 30 tables, there are never lineups. And like with BSOs at PIL back home, you can go 'shopping' for the Japanese equivalent of a white middle aged male BSO, but they seemingly switch the positions of officers after the pax approaches at random.

Having gone through Japan 4 times, I can also agree that Japan has the best system for screening people! I like the fact you have the red and green lanes and that they have a wide fishnet to catch offenders as they pass through -- you have no choice but to appraoch an officer which checks your documentation (and possibly search bag) and lets you go if all is clear.

Also give a nod of the head to that fact about all the officers standing attentively at their posts and not joking or slouching at their job, they throughoutly appreciate the work they do because they're paid to do it right the first time.

Sanosuke!

st7860 Apr 17, 2008 11:40 am

at the beijing airport at both the arrival customs area and the depature customs area, there are buttons below the kiosk of EACH customs officer that you can push to rate the service you received from that officer (5 choices)

Sopwith Apr 17, 2008 4:08 pm


Originally Posted by st7860 (Post 9589930)
at the beijing airport at both the arrival customs area and the depature customs area, there are buttons below the kiosk of EACH customs officer that you can push to rate the service you received from that officer (5 choices)

Do you push the button before or after you receive the service?;)

st7860 Apr 17, 2008 4:12 pm


Originally Posted by Sopwith (Post 9591673)
Do you push the button before or after you receive the service?;)

see the little gray things below each kiosk?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/exploringchina/442648317/

http://www.airlinequality.com/Airpor..._forum/pek.htm
They speak English quite well. Interesting tidbit: at the passport check, each clerk as his/her own ratings module where you can press a button to indicate the level of service you were given.

Spounce Apr 17, 2008 6:28 pm


Originally Posted by st7860 (Post 9591688)
see the little gray things below each kiosk?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/exploringchina/442648317/

http://www.airlinequality.com/Airpor..._forum/pek.htm
They speak English quite well. Interesting tidbit: at the passport check, each clerk as his/her own ratings module where you can press a button to indicate the level of service you were given.

That's nice. Police stations in Singapore have comment cards, too, on which you can rate the level of courtesy you were shown during your visit. Of course, this doesn't stop the Singapore Police from beating suspects routinely.

I have never been mistreated by border officials in Canada or any other country.

cur Apr 18, 2008 5:57 am


Originally Posted by Sanosuke (Post 9589894)
Also give a nod of the head to that fact about all the officers standing attentively at their posts and not joking or slouching at their job, they throughoutly appreciate the work they do because they're paid to do it right the first time.

This definitely falls into the Japanese social hierarchy. Customer is king. Those in authority are in authority but also of service. I like that. I've given up trying to think that North America is capable of that, ever since the clerks at starbucks say "you're welcome" without me even saying "thanks".


Originally Posted by st7860 (Post 9589930)
at the beijing airport at both the arrival customs area and the depature customs area, there are buttons below the kiosk of EACH customs officer that you can push to rate the service you received from that officer (5 choices)

sounds a lot better an India where plasma screens above the officers in PIL flash in big bold red letters: "DO NOT PAY BRIBE".
IMM officers in India are nice to my white arse, at least.


Originally Posted by st7860 (Post 9589930)
at the beijing airport at both the arrival customs area and the depature customs area, there are buttons below the kiosk of EACH customs officer that you can push to rate the service you received from that officer (5 choices)

and I'm sure if a foreigner gives a 2/5 rating, the managers would sit down with that officer and his union rep, resulting in a transparent and collaborative discussion about how that officer can improve his level of service delivery for the honest hard working public :D:D.

Originally Posted by Spounce (Post 9592305)
That's nice. Police stations in Singapore have comment cards, too, on which you can rate the level of courtesy you were shown during your visit. Of course, this doesn't stop the Singapore Police from beating suspects routinely.

I have never been mistreated by border officials in Canada or any other country.

USA CBP have the exact same cards. one side has a very clear pledge to the traveler with something like 5 promises that a CBP officer will fulfill, the other side has 40 y/n questions about what you may be complaining about (everything from belief that you are racially profiled to sexual harassment), and IIRC, a promise that a supervisor would call you personally within 72 hours.
...whereas all a BSofficers will give you is a 5 page survey about your income/purpose of leaving/occupation/how you travel for the interest of statscan.

complaining about a BSofficer to a superintendent that became a manager because he was incompetent at his job as a BSofficer, however, is another thing.

Q Shoe Guy Apr 18, 2008 7:33 am


Originally Posted by Simon (Post 9583707)

The process used in EU, Australia, etc. of green/red lanes would be a welcome change.

Simon

They have the same red lane/green lane in Japan at customs......it's just that they stop everyone and question them:D:td:! And just because you are all "okyaksama" (that is after they photograph and fingerprint you), and they take pity on "certain gaijin " for not speaking Japanese they let you shuffle through (not to mention all the Y-Men and their lady friends coming back from BKK with their bags stuffed full of drugs and copy LV), but me they search and hassle until I start taking off my clothes.....Then they let me go with a "sumimasen". The Japanese customs officials are dorks!

visitor Apr 18, 2008 10:27 am


Originally Posted by Q Shoe Guy (Post 9594634)
... but me they search and hassle until I start taking off my clothes.....Then they let me go with a "sumimasen". The Japanese customs officials are dorks!

You're not getting away with that little hook :) - details please!

Braindrain Apr 18, 2008 2:21 pm


Originally Posted by st7860
at the beijing airport at both the arrival customs area and the depature customs area, there are buttons below the kiosk of EACH customs officer that you can push to rate the service you received from that officer (5 choices)


Originally Posted by Sopwith (Post 9591673)
Do you push the button before or after you receive the service?;)

It's after. Since they implemented this new system, dealings with China Customs/Immigration has been extremely professional and, dare I say, pleasant?

One time, they thanked me after I pressed the button. Made me wonder if they saw which one I pressed.

YOWkid Apr 18, 2008 8:17 pm

It probably pops up on their screen. :D

Sanosuke Apr 18, 2008 11:35 pm

YOWKid, just be careful about that button next time you go to China.. ;) They might think you are flirting with the female officer... ;)

Sanosuke!

propofol Apr 19, 2008 6:49 am

Haven't heard from CBSAguy in a couple of days - maybe he's been shut down by his superiors?


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