Jan 3, 2021, 2:19 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to the full original text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Click here for last year's (2020) thread.
The 2021/22 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Jul 17, 2021, 7:49 am
#136
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Programs: BA GGL, BA LTG/GFL, Honors Diamond, Accor Platinum, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 718
Sorry I was unclear. Yes definitely travelled in J, on the original date, same flight number, just a cabin closure, and I asked Propeller, who have asked BA, who didn't reply.
Jul 17, 2021, 7:54 am
#137
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,850
OK, well BA has tried this before, trying to maintain that only day-of-travel downgrades are in scope. There is CJEU case law that says that's definitely not the case. MCOL for a quick process (BA will probably capitulate after a few weeks) or CEDR for a more user friendly version. Ensure you claim for slightly more than you think, e.g rounding up to the nearest Ł5, the judge / adjudicator will knock it back a bit if necessary but cannot give more. Add in a bit for paperwork, stationary, photocopying, stamps and interest. BA won't willingly pay interest but it's a good way to negotiate their end game for them.
Jul 17, 2021, 8:04 am
#138
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Programs: BA GGL, BA LTG/GFL, Honors Diamond, Accor Platinum, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 718
Super thanks. Just wanted to sense check I wasn’t being daft. 
Jul 20, 2021, 5:11 pm
#139
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, UK
Programs: BAEC Blue, IB Plus, AY Plus, HHonors Diamond, BW Diamond, Hertz President's Club
Posts: 15
Hi everyone.
My flight from Riga to London for 15th August has just been cancelled. As the only re-routing offered is for a flight via FRA leaving 7 hours earlier than the original BA flight (so leaving before I land in Riga), I suggested being booked onto a Finnair flight flying from HEL to LHR in the afternoon, as I'll be in Helsinki that morning, but it has been denied "as they don't re-route on codeshare flights".
Any idea if I should push further on this?
Many thanks.
My flight from Riga to London for 15th August has just been cancelled. As the only re-routing offered is for a flight via FRA leaving 7 hours earlier than the original BA flight (so leaving before I land in Riga), I suggested being booked onto a Finnair flight flying from HEL to LHR in the afternoon, as I'll be in Helsinki that morning, but it has been denied "as they don't re-route on codeshare flights".
Any idea if I should push further on this?
Many thanks.
Jul 23, 2021, 1:57 am
#140
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Programs: BA GGL, BA LTG/GFL, Honors Diamond, Accor Platinum, Bonvoy Silver
Posts: 718
A small query please on MCOL procedure.
When / how do I submit a full Skeleton argument? I have read the ex304, ex305 and MCOL guidance.
The initial MCOL claim is capped at 1080 characters - no problem for the basic “BA owes me Łx because of a downgrade”, but I am prepared for, and think I should send, a proper argument with legislation extracts etc that will be longer.
Is that in the “additional particulars of claim” that be served, or later in the process when BA presumably state they intend to defend and there is a directions questionnaire?
Thanks
When / how do I submit a full Skeleton argument? I have read the ex304, ex305 and MCOL guidance.
The initial MCOL claim is capped at 1080 characters - no problem for the basic “BA owes me Łx because of a downgrade”, but I am prepared for, and think I should send, a proper argument with legislation extracts etc that will be longer.
Is that in the “additional particulars of claim” that be served, or later in the process when BA presumably state they intend to defend and there is a directions questionnaire?
Thanks
Jul 23, 2021, 2:16 am
#141
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,850
Later on, but if you have it ready, and you are happy that it is a correct, then after you have sent in the first MCOL submission into the MCOL process, you can simply send your case to BA at the addressed used for the service of MCOL with BA. In addition, if you get towards a hearing, there is a stage at which you can prepare a skeleton for the hearing itself, and that can be revised from what you send BA now, just add the BA version as an appendix to the court hearing skeleton. And you do this when you get given notice of the court hearing date - there is usually a document service deadline in there.
Jul 23, 2021, 2:20 am
#142
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,850
My flight from Riga to London for 15th August has just been cancelled. As the only re-routing offered is for a flight via FRA leaving 7 hours earlier than the original BA flight (so leaving before I land in Riga), I suggested being booked onto a Finnair flight flying from HEL to LHR in the afternoon, as I'll be in Helsinki that morning, but it has been denied "as they don't re-route on codeshare flights".
Jul 24, 2021, 10:58 am
#143
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 12
I put in a claim for a cancelation last August. They cancelled our return flight several times, including once when I received the email on landing on the outbound leg. I was going to let it go, but they have really annoyed me this year. Advertising a full schedule to LHR <-> BUD/VIE, but cancelling on a ~3week window. So I decided to claim for last year when one of the cancelations was within the 14 day window.
I just received the following back from them:
As I understand it, simply quoting "operational reasons" is not sufficient. So I've responded by stating they must demonstrate the cancelation was outside of their control. And if they do not provide a satisfactory response within 7 days I shall pass the matter to a claims handling company.
Any advice/pointers greatly accepted.
NB: This was a BA Hols Flight + Car booking incase that makes a difference.
I just received the following back from them:
Thanks for contacting us about your claim for EU compensation. We're sorry it was necessary to cancel your flight from Budapest on 02 September 2020.
Your claim's been refused because BA0875 on 02 September 2020 was cancelled because of operational reasons.
We take all reasonable measures to avoid disruption to a flight and we always consider if there are any other alternative solutions before we make a decision. The cancellation was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule.
Thanks again for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
Your claim's been refused because BA0875 on 02 September 2020 was cancelled because of operational reasons.
We take all reasonable measures to avoid disruption to a flight and we always consider if there are any other alternative solutions before we make a decision. The cancellation was out of our control and caused unforeseen disruption to our schedule.
Thanks again for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
Any advice/pointers greatly accepted.
NB: This was a BA Hols Flight + Car booking incase that makes a difference.
Jul 24, 2021, 10:58 am
#144
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 12
Also, this year they've cancelled our outbound flight. Eventually we had to opt for an indirect option with Fin Air (LHR -> HEL -> BUD). That is due to depart on the 02/08/21. But yesterday I received an email stating the return had been cancelled (BUD -> LHR - 19/08/21). Again this a flight + car booking.
Does it make any difference that the cancelation is within 14 days of the outbound date? I'm guessing not and they don't have to compensate given the cancelation is outside of the 14 days for the return flight which has been cancelled. But wanted to double check.
Does it make any difference that the cancelation is within 14 days of the outbound date? I'm guessing not and they don't have to compensate given the cancelation is outside of the 14 days for the return flight which has been cancelled. But wanted to double check.
Jul 24, 2021, 11:07 am
#145
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,850
As I understand it, simply quoting "operational reasons" is not sufficient. So I've responded by stating they must demonstrate the cancelation was outside of their control. And if they do not provide a satisfactory response within 7 days I shall pass the matter to a claims handling company.
Also, this year they've cancelled our outbound flight. Eventually we had to opt for an indirect option with Fin Air (LHR -> HEL -> BUD). That is due to depart on the 02/08/21. But yesterday I received an email stating the return had been cancelled (BUD -> LHR - 19/08/21). Again this a flight + car booking.
Does it make any difference that the cancelation is within 14 days of the outbound date? I'm guessing not and they don't have to compensate given the cancelation is outside of the 14 days for the return flight which has been cancelled. But wanted to double check.
Does it make any difference that the cancelation is within 14 days of the outbound date? I'm guessing not and they don't have to compensate given the cancelation is outside of the 14 days for the return flight which has been cancelled. But wanted to double check.
Jul 24, 2021, 11:11 am
#146
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 12
Hopefully I can remember the timelines ...
Was due to fly BSL-LHR on 6th November. 10 days before the flight, BA cancelled it. I got my FTV back. I should have got cash I suppose, but they argued they hadn't actually gotten around to ticketing it so just returned the FTV. I didn't push the point as it was only for around Ł60.
But, as the cancellation was short and I was annoyed at their rolling cancellations, I completed BA's online form asking for E261 comp. Was refused.
First response: Cancelled due to operational reasons. I said that's unlikely as they cancelled two weeks' worth of flights.
Second response: We gave you enough notice. I replied stating that 10 days is less than 14 days.
Third response: Operational reasons. I replied asking if it was their final answer (no phone a friend).
Fourth response: Operational reasons. I replied asking again if it was their final answer.
Fifth response: Go away. Go to CEDR if you must.
I logged a CEDR. I stated that between the time BA sold the flight (mid Oct) and them cancelling it (end Oct), no rules had changed between Switzerland and the UK and Covid was a known entity and airlines had already sorted out their timetables to deal with it. Plus, Easyjet and Swiss were still flying between the two countries.
20.11.2020: Case logged with CEDR.
23.11.2020: Case accepted
??: BA asked for a delay
23.02.2021: BA submitted loads of documents proving that I had booked the flight (why?) and said flight was cancelled due to Covid
17.03.2021: CEDR appointed an adjudicator
10.04.2021: CEDR award me €250 (Ł217).
Reading the conclusion, CEDR stated that the flight was cancelled due to reasons of financial viability not due to any flight restrictions or issues regarding safely operating the flight with the crew.
Was due to fly BSL-LHR on 6th November. 10 days before the flight, BA cancelled it. I got my FTV back. I should have got cash I suppose, but they argued they hadn't actually gotten around to ticketing it so just returned the FTV. I didn't push the point as it was only for around Ł60.
But, as the cancellation was short and I was annoyed at their rolling cancellations, I completed BA's online form asking for E261 comp. Was refused.
First response: Cancelled due to operational reasons. I said that's unlikely as they cancelled two weeks' worth of flights.
Second response: We gave you enough notice. I replied stating that 10 days is less than 14 days.
Third response: Operational reasons. I replied asking if it was their final answer (no phone a friend).
Fourth response: Operational reasons. I replied asking again if it was their final answer.
Fifth response: Go away. Go to CEDR if you must.
I logged a CEDR. I stated that between the time BA sold the flight (mid Oct) and them cancelling it (end Oct), no rules had changed between Switzerland and the UK and Covid was a known entity and airlines had already sorted out their timetables to deal with it. Plus, Easyjet and Swiss were still flying between the two countries.
20.11.2020: Case logged with CEDR.
23.11.2020: Case accepted
??: BA asked for a delay
23.02.2021: BA submitted loads of documents proving that I had booked the flight (why?) and said flight was cancelled due to Covid
17.03.2021: CEDR appointed an adjudicator
10.04.2021: CEDR award me €250 (Ł217).
Reading the conclusion, CEDR stated that the flight was cancelled due to reasons of financial viability not due to any flight restrictions or issues regarding safely operating the flight with the crew.
Jul 26, 2021, 7:58 am
#147
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 12
If they cancelled giving you less than 14 days notice and they were operating on other days and/or they gave alternative routing, then depending on the details you may have a case. As shown by some of the recent posts upthread, COVID is regarded as an extraordinary circumstance but as you indicate BA need to show there really were no alternatives open to them (e.g. if there was a government ban). Whether your claim will succeed will depend on the details. I would suggest CEDR rather than a claims handling company.
I wasn't planning to claim as I didn't want to kick them whilst they are down. But their behaviour this year has really irked me - The rolling T minus ~3 week cancelations to avoid paying compensation (they've cancelled well over 100 flights in the last four weeks to VIE/BUD). They are just rolling the dice with the burden falling on the customer. They cancelled the outbound a few days after I booked. Offered the following week, by the time my wife got her leave changed they'd cancelled that. Then offer the indirect routing with FinAir. And a day later have now cancelled the return.
Spent several hours calling them. Today it took me all day to even get into the queue (as they kept saying they aren't taking calls right now).
Thats what I thought, but thought i'd double check. They really are taking the P***. How many times can my wife go to work and ask for her leave to be amended. If it wasn't on compassionate grounds, her manager would have told her to take a hike by now!
Jul 28, 2021, 4:20 pm
#148
Join Date: Jul 2014
Programs: Jeff is Deaf
Posts: 541
Pair of F tickets downgraded to J. Am I correct to get a refund of 75% of Avios paid + 75% of tax paid. Just fly the flight without rebooking (can you select seats?), and then use the mechanism described above to get the full amount (CS may try and trick parents to accept less) Used a 2 4 1 voucher, wondering if can successfully argue for another voucher?
Aug 4, 2021, 5:31 pm
#149
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 45
Potentially you may have a case for CEDR, since in effect you were misadvised and found yourself making suboptimal decisions based on mistakes by staff. There is a provision under Articles 14 and 15 for airlines to be on best behaviour here. But the problem is that both articles have limited enforcement teeth, but you could try with CEDR. You should first work out what would be the right remedy for you, and ask BA for it clearly, for them to turn down. At that point you may have a mechanism to go to CEDR. Now CEDR prefers to deal with clear breaches, whereas your case is a bit of a grey area. This is because you accepted a refund and that is one, probably the most important remedy of EC261, and as soon as you accept the refund you become a former customer at that point. But if you feel strongly about it, I would not discourage you and it would be good to find out what happens.
Always use FT in this situation, you will get good and accurate advice in this forum.
Always use FT in this situation, you will get good and accurate advice in this forum.
My original 241 Avios booking was cancelled, I was told I couldn't rebook in F/CW as there was no availability, so I accepted cancellation as I didn't realise at the time that I should have asked them to follow the Principal Guidelines. BA have responded to my CEDR complaint by asking for further details as they would 'like to see if they can help'. When I go to CEDR I only seem to have an option to 'accept' or 'reject' the offer, although they're not really making me an offer right now and I don't know if selecting either option gives me the opportunity to provide more details. Can anyone advise if I should proceed or choose another option? I'd happily accept the change to the classes in my original booking, I was only able to rebook in WT, but I don't want to 'accept' the offer and have the case closed by CEDR until I know the full outcome. Thanks!
Aug 4, 2021, 5:56 pm
#150
Join Date: Apr 2014
Programs: BAEC Gold. Hilton Diamond
Posts: 409
As promised, I'm posting a follow up to my post #72 after taking advice from CWS My original 241 Avios booking was cancelled, I was told I couldn't rebook in F/CW as there was no availability, so I accepted cancellation as I didn't realise at the time that I should have asked them to follow the Principal Guidelines. BA have responded to my CEDR complaint by asking for further details as they would 'like to see if they can help'. When I go to CEDR I only seem to have an option to 'accept' or 'reject' the offer, although they're not really making me an offer right now and I don't know if selecting either option gives me the opportunity to provide more details. Can anyone advise if I should proceed or choose another option? I'd happily accept the change to the classes in my original booking, I was only able to rebook in WT, but I don't want to 'accept' the offer and have the case closed by CEDR until I know the full outcome. Thanks!
My original 241 Avios booking was cancelled, I was told I couldn't rebook in F/CW as there was no availability, so I accepted cancellation as I didn't realise at the time that I should have asked them to follow the Principal Guidelines. BA have responded to my CEDR complaint by asking for further details as they would 'like to see if they can help'. When I go to CEDR I only seem to have an option to 'accept' or 'reject' the offer, although they're not really making me an offer right now and I don't know if selecting either option gives me the opportunity to provide more details. Can anyone advise if I should proceed or choose another option? I'd happily accept the change to the classes in my original booking, I was only able to rebook in WT, but I don't want to 'accept' the offer and have the case closed by CEDR until I know the full outcome. Thanks!I’m in the middle of a CEDR dispute with BA in relation to an involuntary downgrade from F to J (flown) and I agree it can be difficult to know what to do. You can’t accept something that isn’t tangible but equally, there has to be dialogue between the parties to the point of deadlock before an adjudicator can be appointed to decide the merits of both arguments. There should be an option on the home page of your complaint to “talk it out” so if BA are asking for further details to see if they can help, simply reply to this via the talk it out button and ask what further details they might need in order for them to help. Of course, they won’t actually need anything as they’ll already have all the detail and they’ll just string you along before eventually reverting to something scripted which basically says “no”. Do persevere though as yours is an interesting case and you need to reach deadlock in order for the adjudication process to commence. This is my take on the process having only embarked on it once and which I’m currently in the middle of so others on this thread will undoubtedly have more experience and which they will hopefully share with you so you can make an informed decision. Good luck and do keep us posted on your progress.