CSM attitude to 'self upgraders'
Jan 27, 2020, 10:42 am
#91
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: EVA Air , * G, QR Privilege Club S
Posts: 5,189
The times I have seen was on Air Asia and they point blankly told the passengers they are premium paid seats and they have to pay extra if they want to sit down. The passengers were sent back with no nonsense.
Jan 27, 2020, 11:01 am
#92
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Programs: plenty - ggl, ccr, etc, etc.
Posts: 1,704
In one form or another they WILL disturb - like take an an unplanned share of the F&B for that cabin, for example, especially where catering is tight.
ignoring it only encourages the perpetrator to try again.
Next up you’ll find the same person in your paid for seat, arguing for you to sit elsewhere as it is easier for them.
Personally, have encountered this after being one of the last to board to find someone else (trying it on from traveller) in 62K in Club at JFK - at which point they’ve opened the blankets and got their grime over the pillow etc - ie disturbance.
Jan 27, 2020, 11:02 am
#93
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Roswell, GA
Programs: AA EXP 2.8m,Lifetime PLT, Hilton Diamond, IHG PlLT, SPG Gold
Posts: 3,193
if the OP knows the name of the CSM, we could let everyone know that flies BA to look for her and just take whatever seat they want.
(just kidding of course)
But it would and does bother me, if someone just grabs a seat in the cabin they have not paid for, unless directed by the crew.
(just kidding of course)
But it would and does bother me, if someone just grabs a seat in the cabin they have not paid for, unless directed by the crew.
Jan 27, 2020, 11:04 am
#94
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Location: London
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given there seems to be a tend of this on BA, and as BOB can accept cards I don’t understand why BA does nt offer CSMs the route to have a ‘pay or move’ discussion: say move or pay a flat £950 charge to self upgrade in CE, £2,500 for WTP and say £5,000 in Club?
Jan 27, 2020, 11:13 am
#95
Join Date: Mar 2011
Programs: BA exec, HHonors Diamond
Posts: 556
thanks
T
Jan 27, 2020, 11:23 am
#96
Join Date: Nov 2017
Programs: BA, Hilton
Posts: 2,092
The lost revenue, as I see it, is not necessarily directly from that event. I agree... it is unlikely that any one event would result in lost revenue on that occasion. The lost revenue would come from others seeing that this strategy is successful and so it is quite possible that that perpetrator, or an observer nearby, might take a chance on not buying the higher grade ticket in future in the hope they would be successful in self-upgrading. Of course, they would need to accept that they might not be successful but the savings are so large and there being very little (or no) penalty for trying, I could imagine some people trying it on if it looked like it had any chance of success. Flygirl68 says that she has not seen it succeed but surely that is because of observant and competent crews and possibly assisted by passengers bringing it to their attention. I am simply saying that if we don't continue to bring this behaviour to attention of the crew then there will be an increasing chance of success.
However, I can't see how we could actually get to such a scenario. Firstly, I would disagree that there is little or no penalty for trying to adopt the strategy under discussion. It carries a very real risk of being unsuccessful - the next cabin may be sold out, and even if it is not, it relies upon the act being unnoticed (or not acted upon) by crew. In such cases, our sneaky traveller does suffer a penalty, namely travelling in a lower cabin than the one they wanted (and if they weren't prepared to pay for that desired cabin, there can be no loss of revenue)
More simply, it would require crew to routinely overlook self-upgraders - given the way BA actively protects the integrity of its travel classes (c.f. no space available upgrades to elites) I cannot see this occurring. Certainly the occasional individual may manage to pull it off successfully, but while they remain very much the exception, the lost-revenue argument still seems weak to me.
(If people were routinely doing this successfully, I agree that changes things dramatically)
It's an interesting topic, as others have noted.
Jan 27, 2020, 11:38 am
#97
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold; Hilton Honors Diamond
Posts: 3,228
This is an interesting thread!
I wonder if the class someone sneaks in to makes a difference to whether or not people find it acceptable / unacceptable? Is it OK and a bit cheeky to go from WT to WTP, but for the same person to go to CW or F would be taking the proverbial? Does it make a difference if you pay for your flights or not?
Would you change your mind if you'd set your heart on a particular menu item, and the last plate of it went to someone you had seen sneak in to the cabin but hadn't been spotted by the crew?
Me personally, I don't think I'd feel as aggrieved in WTP as I would be in F. I pay a lot of money to fly First or Club World, and it's my money not a super-generous company travel policy, so I would be pretty peeved if it became something that people just did because they knew they could get away with it, therefore I would flag to the crew if I saw someone do it.
I wonder if the class someone sneaks in to makes a difference to whether or not people find it acceptable / unacceptable? Is it OK and a bit cheeky to go from WT to WTP, but for the same person to go to CW or F would be taking the proverbial? Does it make a difference if you pay for your flights or not?
Would you change your mind if you'd set your heart on a particular menu item, and the last plate of it went to someone you had seen sneak in to the cabin but hadn't been spotted by the crew?
Me personally, I don't think I'd feel as aggrieved in WTP as I would be in F. I pay a lot of money to fly First or Club World, and it's my money not a super-generous company travel policy, so I would be pretty peeved if it became something that people just did because they knew they could get away with it, therefore I would flag to the crew if I saw someone do it.
At the end of the day the self-upgrader is benefitting from sitting in a higher cabin for which they haven't paid - irrespective of whether the benefit be a better seat, more legroom, better food and drink, better ratio of crew etc.
I also think that a lot of people (including me) pay a lot of money to fly WT+ over WT and for them it's the same value proposition as deciding to fly F instead of J. Whether it's corporate money or personal funding is neither here nor there either.
Jan 27, 2020, 11:41 am
#98
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 795
I got chatting to a guy at the gate queue once who was brazenly telling everyone around him that he always books the front row of premium economy so that he can easily move himself into an empty business seat after take off.
I was in the last row of business on that particular flight and he didn't even wait until after push back to self-upgrade, but got short shrift from the crew and went back straight away.
He actually came through twice more during the flight. The second time I grassed on him just for the fun of watching him get kicked out yet again, and got dagger looks as he was ejected, this time by the Captain 😊
I was in the last row of business on that particular flight and he didn't even wait until after push back to self-upgrade, but got short shrift from the crew and went back straight away.
He actually came through twice more during the flight. The second time I grassed on him just for the fun of watching him get kicked out yet again, and got dagger looks as he was ejected, this time by the Captain 😊
Jan 27, 2020, 12:05 pm
#99
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK. West Sussex
Programs: BAEC. Gold
Posts: 786
I got chatting to a guy at the gate queue once who was brazenly telling everyone around him that he always books the front row of premium economy so that he can easily move himself into an empty business seat after take off.
I was in the last row of business on that particular flight and he didn't even wait until after push back to self-upgrade, but got short shrift from the crew and went back straight away.
He actually came through twice more during the flight. The second time I grassed on him just for the fun of watching him get kicked out yet again, and got dagger looks as he was ejected, this time by the Captain 😊
I was in the last row of business on that particular flight and he didn't even wait until after push back to self-upgrade, but got short shrift from the crew and went back straight away.
He actually came through twice more during the flight. The second time I grassed on him just for the fun of watching him get kicked out yet again, and got dagger looks as he was ejected, this time by the Captain 😊
The fact he then tried again.
he should be banned from flying on One World airlines for a year of so
if he is flying on company expenses, imagine trying to explan to his boss that he can't attend the business meeting
Jan 27, 2020, 12:19 pm
#101
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: UK. West Sussex
Programs: BAEC. Gold
Posts: 786
Jan 27, 2020, 12:24 pm
#102
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sydney Australia
Programs: No programs & No Points!!!
Posts: 14,222
Exactly. I think from now on I'll buy economy tickets snd upgrade myself to first.
Jan 27, 2020, 12:26 pm
#103
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All over the place often South Wales and Lake District
Programs: BA Gold for Life Accor Platinum
Posts: 4,552
Jan 27, 2020, 12:42 pm
#104
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Plymouth, UK
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 1,159
A person who self-upgrades doesn't steal from you. The seat is unoccupied and any revenue potential is lost upon take-off unless the cabin crew decides to charge the upgrader on the spot which in this case they didn't. The airline doesn't make any money if it forces the wayward seat stealer back to his assigned location.
This is a pallid justification to intrude in a matter that is none of your business because you are resentful someone else took the initiative and got something for free that you paid for.
Do you do the same at the theater, sporting events, concerts when someone moves forward to get a better seat?
So you are saying they are "cheapening" the experience?
Then aren't horrible FAs also "lost revenue?" These observant cabin crew, are they attentive and also treat customers very well?
And dirty seats?
Oh, if you want to go that far, isn't BA losing lots of revenue for not charging for every ancillary fee like the LCCs? From what I understand people don't fly BA because they want to, it is because there is no (reasonable) choice.
Then aren't horrible FAs also "lost revenue?" These observant cabin crew, are they attentive and also treat customers very well?
And dirty seats?
Oh, if you want to go that far, isn't BA losing lots of revenue for not charging for every ancillary fee like the LCCs? From what I understand people don't fly BA because they want to, it is because there is no (reasonable) choice.
Thanks for the reply, and for clarifying the nature of your argument. If I may focus - at least initially - on the possibility of lost revenue, you've laid out a hypothetical scenario where that could occur.
However, I can't see how we could actually get to such a scenario. Firstly, I would disagree that there is little or no penalty for trying to adopt the strategy under discussion. It carries a very real risk of being unsuccessful - the next cabin may be sold out, and even if it is not, it relies upon the act being unnoticed (or not acted upon) by crew. In such cases, our sneaky traveller does suffer a penalty, namely travelling in a lower cabin than the one they wanted (and if they weren't prepared to pay for that desired cabin, there can be no loss of revenue)
More simply, it would require crew to routinely overlook self-upgraders - given the way BA actively protects the integrity of its travel classes (c.f. no space available upgrades to elites) I cannot see this occurring. Certainly the occasional individual may manage to pull it off successfully, but while they remain very much the exception, the lost-revenue argument still seems weak to me.
(If people were routinely doing this successfully, I agree that changes things dramatically)
It's an interesting topic, as others have noted.
However, I can't see how we could actually get to such a scenario. Firstly, I would disagree that there is little or no penalty for trying to adopt the strategy under discussion. It carries a very real risk of being unsuccessful - the next cabin may be sold out, and even if it is not, it relies upon the act being unnoticed (or not acted upon) by crew. In such cases, our sneaky traveller does suffer a penalty, namely travelling in a lower cabin than the one they wanted (and if they weren't prepared to pay for that desired cabin, there can be no loss of revenue)
More simply, it would require crew to routinely overlook self-upgraders - given the way BA actively protects the integrity of its travel classes (c.f. no space available upgrades to elites) I cannot see this occurring. Certainly the occasional individual may manage to pull it off successfully, but while they remain very much the exception, the lost-revenue argument still seems weak to me.
(If people were routinely doing this successfully, I agree that changes things dramatically)
It's an interesting topic, as others have noted.
It isn't routine because pressure is put on the CC to spot it and stop it... by the airline and by other passengers. My argument is that if we don't help CC to do this (let's face it... they are busy!) then there is a danger of it becoming more routine that it is missed. I do agree... while it is at the rate it is now the lost revenue argument does not really apply much but I think that we all should beware of it becoming more common when significant revenue might be lost.
The argument that the revenue is lost as soon as the doors close is not true... the seat revenue might not be recoverable for that flight but a self-upgrader could easily consume champers, eat the better food and use the bedding... all of which costs BA where it wouldn't have if the seat was empty for the flight.
I do find this discussion turning rather distasteful. I find that I am now defending what I call reasonable behaviour and arguing against criminal behaviour with people that seem to think it OK to steal services they haven't paid for. So I am now out of this discussion. I have made my point though and I value the chance to discuss it
Jan 27, 2020, 12:55 pm
#105
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
Sat in WT+ this morning on BA165 and along comes a lady who sits in the row behind me, immediately summons the crew and says 'my husband tried to upgrade but was told there were no seats - the row is empty, can he sit here?' Crew said they'd ask the 'manager' and get back to her.