New First Class
Mar 3, 2019, 4:59 am
#151
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HKG
Programs: BA GGL & CCR
Posts: 600
But how do you know whether your cabin is “full of people who paid nothing or nominal cost to be there”, or whether it’s full of revenue pax? And why would you even want to know if it has the potential to ruin your enjoyment so much?
If you’re sitting in the seat that you paid for, in the cabin that you paid for, and you still feel like a sucker - well, you only have yourself to blame for that.
By all means help yourself to drinks when someone else is buying and disappear or pull out the half price coupons when it’s your turn... but don’t complain when people start looking sideways and commenting. Can’t have your cake and eat it to.
Mar 3, 2019, 5:35 am
#152
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 305
Someone has to pay for seats or the cabin wouldn’t fly...
By all means help yourself to drinks when someone else is buying and disappear or pull out the half price coupons when it’s your turn... but don’t complain when people start looking sideways and commenting. Can’t have your cake and eat it to.
i just find it bizarre that people would “look sideways and comment” at my presence in the cabin when redeeming my hard-earned Avios, but not when I’m flying F. I’m the same person.
Would you also look sideways at someone travelling on a cheaper non-flexible fare? Is there a sliding scale of how acceptable my presence is depending on how much I’ve paid for my seat on a particular occasion?
Mar 3, 2019, 6:00 am
#153
Suspended
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Programs: plenty - ggl, ccr, etc, etc.
Posts: 1,704
I dont think theres any chance theyll do a SQ, EY type effort, suspect an EK seat would be beyond the U.K. market too. I don’t think they’ll go as far as AF either
IF they do plan to upgrade the current proposition to a better, more exclusive effort, I think they’ll like align it with the LH, LX type level, which, if we’re all being honest, it’s not all that far away from now
All they need is a few more bells and whistles on board, a few ground service enhancements, including a car/ van transfer service (not that LH offer that for standard connecting/ arriving pax) and they’re there
If overall F numbers are cut by over half, with only 8 seats on less aircraft and prices are upped a bit, I think the ground service could be managed at LHR.
I guess we’ll see in a couple of years, they may well just reduce numbers and stay as is, their overall model is obviously far more successful than the airlines you quoted when you look at profit etc, Ive no idea how BA fits into that though
Personally I hope they keep it as is, I enjoy my annual redemption and having tried LH and LX, while definitely a little better, it’s MUCH easier to get a BA flight as things stand and I’d prefer the guarantee of a seat over the promise of some caviar if I get lucky.
IF they do plan to upgrade the current proposition to a better, more exclusive effort, I think they’ll like align it with the LH, LX type level, which, if we’re all being honest, it’s not all that far away from now
All they need is a few more bells and whistles on board, a few ground service enhancements, including a car/ van transfer service (not that LH offer that for standard connecting/ arriving pax) and they’re there
If overall F numbers are cut by over half, with only 8 seats on less aircraft and prices are upped a bit, I think the ground service could be managed at LHR.
I guess we’ll see in a couple of years, they may well just reduce numbers and stay as is, their overall model is obviously far more successful than the airlines you quoted when you look at profit etc, Ive no idea how BA fits into that though
Personally I hope they keep it as is, I enjoy my annual redemption and having tried LH and LX, while definitely a little better, it’s MUCH easier to get a BA flight as things stand and I’d prefer the guarantee of a seat over the promise of some caviar if I get lucky.
all good points.
with 14 going to 8 on all but the a380, the 787-10 in some cases may not have F and the 350-1000 with no F I suspect that the cuts will be more than halving F seat count.
Many routes will end up with no F so if you have a much reduced seat count then you can up the price and add the extras and much improve the product.
But I’ll guarantee there’ll be moaning on here as the cheap fares and cheap upgrades go.
(And it seems very possible perhaps that they may limit F redemptions to BA emeralds only - it would create a strong incentive to aim for gold).
Mar 3, 2019, 6:06 am
#154
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: JER
Programs: BA Gold/OWE, several MUCCI, and assorted Pensions!
Posts: 32,146
I sometimes wonder how others see me when I’m sitting in Row 1, or boarding in Group 1, or relaxing in the FLounge. What? A 70+ yo in Cargos and Trainers, with a bright yellow backpack?
“Surely he should be in the back row of Economy? “
“He must be a TESCO Tourist.”
How would anyone know I’ve paid cash for my seat, as I do every time except for the annual 2-4-1?
“Surely he should be in the back row of Economy? “
“He must be a TESCO Tourist.”
How would anyone know I’ve paid cash for my seat, as I do every time except for the annual 2-4-1?
Mar 3, 2019, 6:15 am
#156
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: BA (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 1,256
I am always astonished by these 'Armchair CEO' threads - especially when they seek to set out rules for changes that haven't happened or are even particularly certain yet. Moreover, it's BA's airline and what they accept as payment for an F ticket, whether it be cash, Avios or Green Shield stamps is, frankly, a matter for them.
IF, however, there is going to be a need for stricter criteria for admission as a passenger to the smaller First Class cabins of the future, then such criteria need to be objective, fair, non-snobbish and commercially viable. I can, in a spirit of disinterested fairness, suggest the following guidelines might be appropriate for British customers wishing to travel F (BA would obviously have to adapt these for those from other jurisdictions):
1. Flying F should obviously be a graduate privilege but BA should be open about degree class or subject. A qualification from either of the universities should suffice;
2. F passengers should live somewhere appropriate. The obvious option would be to require an address in London and the Home Counties, but this would be a little crude in that it would exclude Edinburgh but permit Romford, for example. Perhaps the Office for National Statistics could be persuaded to publish ratios of ciabatta to sausage roll sales on a geographical basis and these could be used;
3. It would obviously be necessary to exclude lottery winners, reality TV stars and other members of the nouveau riche, so customers should be required, at the time of booking, to furnish a copy of Daddy's entry in Debretts/Who's Who or the Army or Royal Navy Officer Lists. In 50 years or so, once the service has established itself, an officer career in the RAF might also be accepted;
4. As a final precaution, when priority boarding is called, those holding F boarding passes should be presented with a bowl of peas and a knife and fork. A few seats should be reserved at the back of the 'plane for anyone committing the ultimate social faux pas, and therefore needing to be downgraded, at this stage.
Apart from a few simple and fair guidelines, such as those suggested, F travel should be open to everyone who is willing to pay the price - using whatever form of payment BA chooses to accept.
IF, however, there is going to be a need for stricter criteria for admission as a passenger to the smaller First Class cabins of the future, then such criteria need to be objective, fair, non-snobbish and commercially viable. I can, in a spirit of disinterested fairness, suggest the following guidelines might be appropriate for British customers wishing to travel F (BA would obviously have to adapt these for those from other jurisdictions):
1. Flying F should obviously be a graduate privilege but BA should be open about degree class or subject. A qualification from either of the universities should suffice;
2. F passengers should live somewhere appropriate. The obvious option would be to require an address in London and the Home Counties, but this would be a little crude in that it would exclude Edinburgh but permit Romford, for example. Perhaps the Office for National Statistics could be persuaded to publish ratios of ciabatta to sausage roll sales on a geographical basis and these could be used;
3. It would obviously be necessary to exclude lottery winners, reality TV stars and other members of the nouveau riche, so customers should be required, at the time of booking, to furnish a copy of Daddy's entry in Debretts/Who's Who or the Army or Royal Navy Officer Lists. In 50 years or so, once the service has established itself, an officer career in the RAF might also be accepted;
4. As a final precaution, when priority boarding is called, those holding F boarding passes should be presented with a bowl of peas and a knife and fork. A few seats should be reserved at the back of the 'plane for anyone committing the ultimate social faux pas, and therefore needing to be downgraded, at this stage.
Apart from a few simple and fair guidelines, such as those suggested, F travel should be open to everyone who is willing to pay the price - using whatever form of payment BA chooses to accept.
Mar 3, 2019, 6:17 am
#157
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: BA - Blue > Bronze > Silver > Bronze > Blue
Posts: 6,812
I very much suspect 95% of people don’t care in the slightest, esp in this day and age, when the out dated concepts of class etc have all but evaporated.
I think peole will judge you far more on how you act and treat others than how you look, or what you’ve paid for your fare
There will no doubt be the 5% of snobs, who will judge otherwise, you and the rest of the 95% will have likely by then judged them as nobs by that point already though!
Mar 3, 2019, 8:10 am
#158
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Anglia UK
Programs: BA-S UA LH-Sen KLM/AF-Plat.
Posts: 1,627
Cutting through some of the verbiage on this thread it seems, perhaps, that the thought is "fewer seats mean higher prices and a more exclusive cabin atmosphere". My own very limited experience of a couple of BA F flights per year for about 10 years before moving to LH and finally to AF was that the fares I paid (own pocket) for the latter were very similar to those which I paid to BA. Where there was a small difference - approx Ł250ish TATL - I enjoyed the Porsche at Frankfurt or the BMW/Jaguar CDG from airbridge to wonderful lounge to airbridge and thought it great value for money. So am not sure a smaller BA cabin would have to price it out of the market as the new AF cabin with 4 seats and the LH 8 seats seem to be able to come into play without breaking my limited bank. Whether that meant cutting BA profits though.... perhaps it wouldn't fly after all.
Mar 3, 2019, 8:39 am
#159
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: JER
Programs: BA Gold/OWE, several MUCCI, and assorted Pensions!
Posts: 32,146
Originally Posted by CCayley
2. F passengers should live somewhere appropriate. <snip>
3. <snip> or the Army or Royal Navy Officer Lists. In 50 years or so, once the service has established itself, an officer career in the RAF might also be accepted;
3. <snip> or the Army or Royal Navy Officer Lists. In 50 years or so, once the service has established itself, an officer career in the RAF might also be accepted;
As for your point 3., I refrain from comment!
Otherwise, I broadly support your frivolous proposal!
Mar 3, 2019, 10:04 am
#160
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
I'm sure that cash fares will continue to be subject to the market discipline of having to compete with similar airlines that offer F, so the disparity may continue to be small. But what BA can do with a smaller F cabin on fewer routes is to have fewer F seats used by awards, redemption upgrades, instrument (eg GUF) upgrades, and op-ups. This seems likely to push F yields up, even if cash fares stay the same. And if yields go up, then there may be more money to provide a better F service to each of the remaining F passengers - as well as a different batch of FT complaints about F.
Mar 3, 2019, 12:35 pm
#161
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: ORD
Programs: US Air, UA BA LH AI DELTA MARRIOTT CHOICE SGP
Posts: 9,883
It must be a magic sense!
I've been lucky enough to fly F (and yes, despite what some would say it's always been a good jump above J) several times. Sometimes via Tesco/Amex/Topcashback/Holiday Inn-generated Avios, sometimes as an "instant upgrade" J cash fare and sometimes as a cash A fare. I've not yet flown on a full-price F fare, but in all cases I've done the same things, worn the same clothes and carried the same luggage. There's no way on earth you could tell whether I was flying on an F, A or Z fare... unless, of course, you've sneaked a peek at the crew's manifest!
I've been lucky enough to fly F (and yes, despite what some would say it's always been a good jump above J) several times. Sometimes via Tesco/Amex/Topcashback/Holiday Inn-generated Avios, sometimes as an "instant upgrade" J cash fare and sometimes as a cash A fare. I've not yet flown on a full-price F fare, but in all cases I've done the same things, worn the same clothes and carried the same luggage. There's no way on earth you could tell whether I was flying on an F, A or Z fare... unless, of course, you've sneaked a peek at the crew's manifest!
I sometimes wonder how others see me when I’m sitting in Row 1, or boarding in Group 1, or relaxing in the FLounge. What? A 70+ yo in Cargos and Trainers, with a bright yellow backpack?
“Surely he should be in the back row of Economy? “
“He must be a TESCO Tourist.”
How would anyone know I’ve paid cash for my seat, as I do every time except for the annual 2-4-1?
“Surely he should be in the back row of Economy? “
“He must be a TESCO Tourist.”
How would anyone know I’ve paid cash for my seat, as I do every time except for the annual 2-4-1?
Mar 3, 2019, 2:13 pm
#163
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold, IHG Platinum, HH Diamond, Hertz PC,
Posts: 1,986
Mar 3, 2019, 2:17 pm
#164
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,616
Mar 3, 2019, 2:45 pm
#165
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: ±38,000 feet
Programs: LH HON, BA GGL, AF Plat, EK Plat
Posts: 6,428