BED BUGS!!!
Jan 16, 2018, 4:06 pm
#166
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
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So let’s look at what we know.
We know that we hear about this issue more with British Airways than other carriers.
We know that the cabin crew spotted this and refused to take care aircraft out.
The cleaners could well have spotted the bugs, cleaned the visible ones within their allotted time and handed the aircraft over. By which time, more bugs could have come out of the seat and became visible to the crew.
I suspect that the outsourcing and cost-cutting that BA have implemented when it comes to cleanliness means that there’s little penalty for the cleaning company for getting this wrong. Therefore, they’ll do a superficial vacuum and not fix the problem. After all, they have no incentive to, it takes a lot of time, is probably not in their contract, and won’t be penalised for not doing so.
Where as if they send the aircraft out late as the cleaning has taken longer, they will get penalised, and won’t actually deal with the infestation fully either. A lose-lose situation for the cleaners.
I think the cabin crew should be commended for their action and absolutely, it was the right decision to take the aircraft out of service and seek a replacement.
Jan 16, 2018, 4:12 pm
#167
Join Date: Oct 2015
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You have mentioned this twice so now I am really intrigued as to why you feel this is a point to be made?
As for me the customer is the important part here, even more so as it’s health related, therefore why would any customer be concerned or indeed even need or want to know how much or if at all whether it’s an expensive delay or cost to BA to rectify a problem.
We know the BB problem is pretty rare, as some extremely regular flyers have pointed out, but that for me makes it even more important to rectify and solve this issue despite the cost or time involved. I for one would want to keep the crew and customer content as these are, overall and in the longer term, more important than the cost of a replacement aircraft and delay to the trip plus other parts.
As I said I’m intrigued as to why you point this out...bed bugs would be something I’d try to eradicate regardless of cost, (which BA did thankfully) especially in the hospitality business. It may be aviation but it’s also hospitality in many respects.
Maybe it is because I’m an avid Aircrash Investigation watcher, and have seen the number of crashes as a result of carriers who don’t put safety first (including a surprising number of very well known carriers) that I am extreamly grateful that BA is demonstrating this is maintained within the company ethos despite the more recent cost cuts.
Jan 16, 2018, 10:47 pm
#168
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
i mention it twice as I was challenged for suggesting that they had behaved in a responsible manner. Them putting the customer first as they have done in this case, despite the cost, demonstrates this.
Maybe it is because I’m an avid Aircrash Investigation watcher, and have seen the number of crashes as a result of carriers who don’t put safety first (including a surprising number of very well known carriers) that I am extreamly grateful that BA is demonstrating this is maintained within the company ethos despite the more recent cost cuts.
Despite being challenged you were unable to substantiate comments in post 117 that this was "not a daily occurrence".
You posted a map you had clearly misunderstood as someone else then noted.
Now we are talking about Air Crash Investigation?? What has cleaning planes properly got to do with it??
Seriously, I admire your desire to defend BA at every turn but it is within their ability to deal with this if they wished. Whether not deep cleaning or fumigating more regularly is a responsible approach is something we can leave to others to decide.
Jan 17, 2018, 1:44 am
#169
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Human beings are not effective bed bug detectors. Detection is a highly specialist area involving specialist teams armed with electronic detectors and/or scent detection dogs
The most effective form of eradication are methyl bromide based fumigants - banned since 2005 so controlling outbreaks of bed bugs is a huge issue. Even the most advanced closed system heat treatments and forced air treatments cannot achieve total eradication. I suppose the only truly effective method is to remove/replace seats.
The most effective form of eradication are methyl bromide based fumigants - banned since 2005 so controlling outbreaks of bed bugs is a huge issue. Even the most advanced closed system heat treatments and forced air treatments cannot achieve total eradication. I suppose the only truly effective method is to remove/replace seats.
The delay in detection or reporting prevented an alternative aircraft being rostered to service the flight with potentially less delay and acceptable comfort to both crew and passengers.
Jan 17, 2018, 1:54 am
#170
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Not even in the top 10 in this thread! I think you've misread "would" as "should". Cleaning staff are probably less likely to be bitten as they (hopefully) aren't spending 6+ hours on the seat. SKYSEA wasn't even remotely wishing ill on anyone.
Jan 17, 2018, 3:16 am
#171
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Whilst I don't wish to respond directly to the personal attack upthread, I will clarify that I haven't misinterpreted the map that I posted, I made an interpretation citing it as some evidence, others may have disagreed with that interpretation which is their progressive, but I stand by the ascertain that since there are less reported cases of bed bugs in Germany compared to the UK, the most likely explanation given similar cultures would be that there are less bed bugs in Germany rather than in the UK.
As for saying it isn't a daily occurrence on BA Planes I believe that it was another poster who posted that it was, who has failed to provide any evidence to support the original claim.
Clearly there are some people in this forum who fail to respect personal opinions of others and wish to label them as trying to defend BA 'at every turn', when in reality if they actually read my posts, even just in this thread, they will see that I have clearly stated there are some things that BA need to improve upon, whilst there are others that hey are being unjustly over criticised. I believe this to be a fair balanced opinion unlike many that I have read on this thread, although obviously everyone's opinion is their own.
Last edited by navylad; Jan 17, 2018 at 3:31 am
Jan 17, 2018, 5:59 am
#172
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
my bad, sorry, I had misread that. Indeed, you would have thought if cleaning staff had recently clean the plane they would have been at risk of being bitten, but then more logically if you think about the PPE they wear and how a plane is clean, perhaps not.
Whilst I don't wish to respond directly to the personal attack upthread, I will clarify that I haven't misinterpreted the map that I posted, I made an interpretation citing it as some evidence, others may have disagreed with that interpretation which is their progressive, but I stand by the ascertain that since there are less reported cases of bed bugs in Germany compared to the UK, the most likely explanation given similar cultures would be that there are less bed bugs in Germany rather than in the UK.
As for saying it isn't a daily occurrence on BA Planes I believe that it was another poster who posted that it was, who has failed to provide any evidence to support the original claim.
Clearly there are some people in this forum who fail to respect personal opinions of others and wish to label them as trying to defend BA 'at every turn', when in reality if they actually read my posts, even just in this thread, they will see that I have clearly stated there are some things that BA need to improve upon, whilst there are others that hey are being unjustly over criticised. I believe this to be a fair balanced opinion unlike many that I have read on this thread, although obviously everyone's opinion is their own.
Whilst I don't wish to respond directly to the personal attack upthread, I will clarify that I haven't misinterpreted the map that I posted, I made an interpretation citing it as some evidence, others may have disagreed with that interpretation which is their progressive, but I stand by the ascertain that since there are less reported cases of bed bugs in Germany compared to the UK, the most likely explanation given similar cultures would be that there are less bed bugs in Germany rather than in the UK.
As for saying it isn't a daily occurrence on BA Planes I believe that it was another poster who posted that it was, who has failed to provide any evidence to support the original claim.
Clearly there are some people in this forum who fail to respect personal opinions of others and wish to label them as trying to defend BA 'at every turn', when in reality if they actually read my posts, even just in this thread, they will see that I have clearly stated there are some things that BA need to improve upon, whilst there are others that hey are being unjustly over criticised. I believe this to be a fair balanced opinion unlike many that I have read on this thread, although obviously everyone's opinion is their own.
You posted a map, stating it is where bed bugs occurences happened. These are of course only reports and virtually all of them are domestic incidents as you can tell by clicking on the red circles. Hardly conclusive as far as this debate is concerned, if it had covered airlines it might be more interesting and of course if you zoom out you can see the map is also incomplete, not a single case reported in the whole of LatAm or Africa?? Really?? Bit odd bearing in mind that one of the cases on this thread occurred between London and Cape Town.
You said "this is hardly a daily occurance and BA transport 100k pax a day" (post 117 if you need to refresh yourself) - I asked perfectly dispassionately how you knew it wasn't a daily occurence?
You said "maybe it is because I'm an avid Aircrash Investigation watcher, and have seen the number of crashes as a result of carriers who don't put safety first (including a surprising number of very well known carriers) that I am extreamly grateful that BA is demonstrating this is maintained within the company ethos despite the more recent cost cuts". All well and good but you aren't seriously suggesting bed bugs are a safety issue so totally irrelevant to what we are discussing.
Why don't we stick to debating the facts and not trying to overlay some form of spin or veneer onto the subject. Unless you are privy to some source of information that has not yet been posted the reality is we don't know whether BA is better or worse than any other airline. We also know that bed bugs are dealt with by cleaning and fumigating, so might it be reasonable to hypothesise that a responsible approach to such bugs may be more thorough cleaning and more regular fumigation by the airline?
Jan 17, 2018, 6:05 am
#173
Join Date: Oct 2015
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If aimed at me, it wasn't a personal attack, I was questioning the content of your posts.
You posted a map, stating it is where bed bugs occurences happened. These are of course only reports and virtually all of them are domestic incidents as you can tell by clicking on the red circles. Hardly conclusive as far as this debate is concerned, if it had covered airlines it might be more interesting and of course if you zoom out you can see the map is also incomplete, not a single case reported in the whole of LatAm or Africa?? Really?? Bit odd bearing in mind that one of the cases on this thread occurred between London and Cape Town.
You said "this is hardly a daily occurance and BA transport 100k pax a day" (post 117 if you need to refresh yourself) - I asked perfectly dispassionately how you knew it wasn't a daily occurence?
You said "maybe it is because I'm an avid Aircrash Investigation watcher, and have seen the number of crashes as a result of carriers who don't put safety first (including a surprising number of very well known carriers) that I am extreamly grateful that BA is demonstrating this is maintained within the company ethos despite the more recent cost cuts". All well and good but you aren't seriously suggesting bed bugs are a safety issue so totally irrelevant to what we are discussing.
Why don't we stick to debating the facts and not trying to overlay some form of spin or veneer onto the subject. Unless you are privy to some source of information that has not yet been posted the reality is we don't know whether BA is better or worse than any other airline. We also know that bed bugs are dealt with by cleaning and fumigating, so might it be reasonable to hypothesise that a responsible approach to such bugs may be more thorough cleaning and more regular fumigation by the airline?
You posted a map, stating it is where bed bugs occurences happened. These are of course only reports and virtually all of them are domestic incidents as you can tell by clicking on the red circles. Hardly conclusive as far as this debate is concerned, if it had covered airlines it might be more interesting and of course if you zoom out you can see the map is also incomplete, not a single case reported in the whole of LatAm or Africa?? Really?? Bit odd bearing in mind that one of the cases on this thread occurred between London and Cape Town.
You said "this is hardly a daily occurance and BA transport 100k pax a day" (post 117 if you need to refresh yourself) - I asked perfectly dispassionately how you knew it wasn't a daily occurence?
You said "maybe it is because I'm an avid Aircrash Investigation watcher, and have seen the number of crashes as a result of carriers who don't put safety first (including a surprising number of very well known carriers) that I am extreamly grateful that BA is demonstrating this is maintained within the company ethos despite the more recent cost cuts". All well and good but you aren't seriously suggesting bed bugs are a safety issue so totally irrelevant to what we are discussing.
Why don't we stick to debating the facts and not trying to overlay some form of spin or veneer onto the subject. Unless you are privy to some source of information that has not yet been posted the reality is we don't know whether BA is better or worse than any other airline. We also know that bed bugs are dealt with by cleaning and fumigating, so might it be reasonable to hypothesise that a responsible approach to such bugs may be more thorough cleaning and more regular fumigation by the airline?
im sorry but your post did come across as a personal attack, raising concerns that have already been discussed and addressed, going over old ground. Sorry you can’t see it as so but when you start saying someone’s posts are getting more odd, on the background of hyper-criticism over the last year, this is clearly the case. As a result I will not be engaging with you further. Take care.
Last edited by navylad; Jan 17, 2018 at 6:21 am
Jan 17, 2018, 6:43 am
#174
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
you say stick to the facts and then start suggesting that bed bugs are removed by cleaning. This is not factual.
im sorry but your post did come across as a personal attack, raising concerns that have already been discussed and addressed, going over old ground. Sorry you can’t see it as so but when you start saying someone’s posts are getting more odd, on the background of hyper-criticism over the last year, this is clearly the case. As a result I will not be engaging with you further. Take care.
im sorry but your post did come across as a personal attack, raising concerns that have already been discussed and addressed, going over old ground. Sorry you can’t see it as so but when you start saying someone’s posts are getting more odd, on the background of hyper-criticism over the last year, this is clearly the case. As a result I will not be engaging with you further. Take care.
I am not going over old ground, I was asking a specific question about how you knew this wasn't a daily occurence. Presumably you are privy to information that has not yet been posted.
Jan 17, 2018, 11:22 am
#176
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
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Wait til bed bugs find their way into a crew rest area on a long haul flight.... that's going to be an interesting turn of events. I have been in a beg with bugs (Dublin as it happens, a few years ago) and they were at me in no time....I was out of that room like a shot. But a new room is not an option in a crew rest area at 38000 feet ...and the unrested pilot presumably still has to fly the aircraft again at some point ?
Jan 17, 2018, 11:52 am
#177
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,237
Wait til bed bugs find their way into a crew rest area on a long haul flight.... that's going to be an interesting turn of events. I have been in a beg with bugs (Dublin as it happens, a few years ago) and they were at me in no time....I was out of that room like a shot. But a new room is not an option in a crew rest area at 38000 feet ...and the unrested pilot presumably still has to fly the aircraft again at some point ?
I don't know if it's been mentioned before, I haven't trawled through the thread, but bed bugs cannot be exterminated through fumigation; in fact, no such product is usable on an aircraft, much for the same reason that neither bleach nor alcohol cleaning products (above a certain % if memory doesn't deceive me) can, i.e. possibility of fumes and poisoning of passengers.
The bugs and their offspring are killed by raising the temperature of the airplane, on the ground and empty, to its technical maximum and by holding it at that level for a while. Then sniffer dogs are employed to ensure not a single insect/egg has survived. Unfortunately, you guessed it, it takes time.
Unfortunately BA doesn't employ dogs so I'm afraid that the sniffing bit is outsourced...
All this is obviously my opinion (where any are stated) and not my employer's.
Jan 17, 2018, 12:02 pm
#178
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,875
Actually, it's happened. What ensues is that the crew rest area is cordoned off and the plane assigned to routes where bunks aren't required (at least that's the intention, the practice is more 'blurred').
I don't know if it's been mentioned before, I haven't trawled through the thread, but bed bugs cannot be exterminated through fumigation; in fact, no such product is usable on an aircraft, much for the same reason that neither bleach nor alcohol cleaning products (above a certain % if memory doesn't deceive me) can, i.e. possibility of fumes and poisoning of passengers.
The bugs and their offspring are killed by raising the temperature of the airplane, on the ground and empty, to its technical maximum and by holding it at that level for a while. Then sniffer dogs are employed to ensure not a single insect/egg has survived. Unfortunately, you guessed it, it takes time.
I don't know if it's been mentioned before, I haven't trawled through the thread, but bed bugs cannot be exterminated through fumigation; in fact, no such product is usable on an aircraft, much for the same reason that neither bleach nor alcohol cleaning products (above a certain % if memory doesn't deceive me) can, i.e. possibility of fumes and poisoning of passengers.
The bugs and their offspring are killed by raising the temperature of the airplane, on the ground and empty, to its technical maximum and by holding it at that level for a while. Then sniffer dogs are employed to ensure not a single insect/egg has survived. Unfortunately, you guessed it, it takes time.
30 minutes is actually not a long time. I can think of many ways to heat up a plane to that temperature, and I think a plane should have no issue withstanding that, except I guess you probably don't want to use certain ways of heating it up.
Jan 17, 2018, 12:09 pm
#179
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,237
I don't know what a plane's maximum is, but you actually don't need very high temperatures to kill bedbugs eggs. 60 degrees Celsius for 30 minutes is what is recommended (dryer). Or freezing them for 2 days (freezer).
30 minutes is actually not a long time. I can think of many ways to heat up a plane to that temperature, and I think a plane should have no issue withstanding that, except I guess you probably don't want to use certain ways of heating it up.
30 minutes is actually not a long time. I can think of many ways to heat up a plane to that temperature, and I think a plane should have no issue withstanding that, except I guess you probably don't want to use certain ways of heating it up.
Jan 17, 2018, 12:48 pm
#180
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And there we are ... there is a potential solution, but it’s long-winded, involves considerable staff effort and entails an aircraft out of service for a prologed period.
Do we expect BA to take an aircraft (or several) out of service for a day (possibly) on the offchance that BBs are present? Please contemplate the costs to the airline and the disruption that would ensue. A ROUTINE prophylactic disinfestation is a complete commercial non-starter.
Do we expect BA to take an aircraft (or several) out of service for a day (possibly) on the offchance that BBs are present? Please contemplate the costs to the airline and the disruption that would ensue. A ROUTINE prophylactic disinfestation is a complete commercial non-starter.