ABBA - anyone but BA
Jul 23, 2017, 9:01 am
#76
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreux CH
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Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I initially thought this was going to refer to some deal with airberlin, a closer joint venture or something. Let face it, airberlin service is not a lot better than BA's and their baggage problems are mind blowing. Dont't check a bag on AB if you want to see it again.
Maybe they could turn over the cheap bit of the split airline to airberlin, and rebrand it airlondon!
Maybe they could turn over the cheap bit of the split airline to airberlin, and rebrand it airlondon!
Jul 23, 2017, 9:30 am
#77
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,399
I often feel it is a sad world where those who do not know reality are hoodwinked by alternative facts.
In terms of brand perception (perhaps not on FT, but whose knows what agenda or brief some hold), BA is very much perceived as a premium brand.
Care to share any market research that shows that differently?
In terms of brand perception (perhaps not on FT, but whose knows what agenda or brief some hold), BA is very much perceived as a premium brand.
Care to share any market research that shows that differently?
Nothing to be 'sad' about (what a strange description !). In truth it's all about just what sort of criteria different people set for 'premium brands'.
It's not the first time that criticism/ negative comment towards BA on this forum has been dismissed as being characterised by an agenda borne out of "alternative facts" - or allegedly unrepresentative of how the general public, outside the narrow prism of Flyertalk, might feel. And certainly it won't be the last.
But perhaps I've been "hoodwinked" by widespread reports of BA's incompetent early handling of the recent IT meltdown ...... hoodwinked too by their lack of innovation in terms of new J class seating & hard product development........ by the wholly unsatisfactory nature of cut & paste, and/or sometimes meaningless, responses to legitimate, often serious, written complaints .......by the ongoing problems surrounding BoB, well over six months after its introduction ......by the airline's low position on Skytrax ratings .......by constant criticism of BA's approach to customer service in the wider print media. And so on, and so on.
It must be said that BA has lots of happy supporters and loyalists. But then lots of people are happy to shop at Lidl and Aldi (as I sometimes am), to fly EasyJet (as I sometimes am), or to buy Ford motor cars. They all offer enough to satisfy many, many people. But very rarely do you hear them being referred to as 'premium brands'.
As stated earlier : the day I can be assured of boarding and flying on a BA aircraft with a similar level of efficiency, product quality, and service standards as experienced when patronising Waitrose or John Lewis, then I can confidently regard them as a premium carrier.
The loads are very good - but let's see if they really can make the improvements that - according to Sr. Cruz himself - are overdue. Time will tell.
Jul 23, 2017, 9:44 am
#78
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
In order to recognize a problem the problem needs to exist. Just because a few people do not find CW aspirational enough or do not like that BA is not QR or CX does not make it a problem if CW is popular with passengers. I think some people need to recognize their problem and that not everyone is flying to get the best seat, food, or lounge. Most people simply want to go where they need to be. The real world is very different.
......
Yes, if the general public like CW then the vocal minority who don't will have to find that perfect seat on a different airline rather than expect BA to install it specifically for them.
......
Yes, if the general public like CW then the vocal minority who don't will have to find that perfect seat on a different airline rather than expect BA to install it specifically for them.
One can always trot out the "find a different airline" argument, I don't think it advances the debate much. We will see in 2/3 years time whether the 'cheap and cheerful' argument really works.
Let's face it if BA reverted to flying people around in RAF type conditions there are posters who would say how fantastic it all was. Fortunately the feedback from recent weeks (from GGL events and whatnot) seems to suggest that BA know they have lagged too far behind and need to do something about it.
Will they deliver? Who knows. Eventually you have to stop talking about new catering, new bedding, new seats etc and deliver. Until them it is just that....talk. I remember the government announcing electrification on the railways about 5 times,when it came to the crunch they copped out.
Jul 23, 2017, 9:52 am
#79
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: BA - Blue > Bronze > Silver > Bronze > Blue
Posts: 6,812
That doesn't answer the question though. How much more would you be willing to pay if it was more?
Jul 23, 2017, 9:55 am
#80
Join Date: Nov 2016
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 35
Rather than Waitrose BA currently strikes me as more like Mike Ashley's Sports Direct with it's appalling treatment of staff and living off the past glories of brands (like Lillywhites and Muddy Fox and Karrimor etc). So whilst it's currently enjoying success selling them cheaply with accordingly cheap quality it will eventually get found out.
I used to book flights purely on price but then I realised getting to Stansted etc at 4am was a false economy. BA has been successful of late as an alternative to Easyjet and Ryanair etc living on it's reputation as a premium brand but there have been too many hits to this lately and they have fallen in to the price only trap at the same time as the genuinely 'Cheap' airlines have raised that their brand was so damaged by playing the price to the bottom game that hey have raised their game.
So based on price I may think BA are a bargain compared to Easyjet and Ryanair until I actually fly them and realise how actually in economy they are at best on a par with Ryanair, Easyjet and Norwegian but are actually lagging behind them (and compared to Economy in Qatar etc they are far behind).
And in terms of premium cabins they are so far behind as to be laughable. There is only so long they can live off their route dominance and past reputation. Every year with every cut people are trying other brands and the moment they do it will take them a while until they come back and whilst they do their word of mouth is toxic.
.
I used to book flights purely on price but then I realised getting to Stansted etc at 4am was a false economy. BA has been successful of late as an alternative to Easyjet and Ryanair etc living on it's reputation as a premium brand but there have been too many hits to this lately and they have fallen in to the price only trap at the same time as the genuinely 'Cheap' airlines have raised that their brand was so damaged by playing the price to the bottom game that hey have raised their game.
So based on price I may think BA are a bargain compared to Easyjet and Ryanair until I actually fly them and realise how actually in economy they are at best on a par with Ryanair, Easyjet and Norwegian but are actually lagging behind them (and compared to Economy in Qatar etc they are far behind).
And in terms of premium cabins they are so far behind as to be laughable. There is only so long they can live off their route dominance and past reputation. Every year with every cut people are trying other brands and the moment they do it will take them a while until they come back and whilst they do their word of mouth is toxic.
.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:02 am
#81
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,477
BA could have made the same statements in the early 2000s but the leadership had a bit more vision and it was truly game changing. Maybe you are just saying BA is a follower rather than a leader (not that there is anything wrong with that).
One can always trot out the "find a different airline" argument, I don't think it advances the debate much. We will see in 2/3 years time whether the 'cheap and cheerful' argument really works.
One can always trot out the "find a different airline" argument, I don't think it advances the debate much. We will see in 2/3 years time whether the 'cheap and cheerful' argument really works.
Look at today, they quietly changed starting from US Airways introduced Envoy seats...the rest is history (although UA still has some old seats flying around but would be gone soon).
I would not go as far as 'some of the posters here stuck themselves in the early 2000's', but I would say that time changes, BA needs a change, but all the changes last two years are in the wrong direction.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:04 am
#82
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: WAS
Programs: Free Agent
Posts: 1,757
I often feel it is a sad world where those who do not know reality are hoodwinked by alternative facts.
In terms of brand perception (perhaps not on FT, but whose knows what agenda or brief some hold), BA is very much perceived as a premium brand.
In terms of brand perception (perhaps not on FT, but whose knows what agenda or brief some hold), BA is very much perceived as a premium brand.
If your statement is not true, then it's hard to imagine a relic of past glory being premium in the modern day. EK was mentioned earlier, and they pride themselves on delivering a baseline of comfort. Their J seat is nothing special, but every class manages to appeal to be appealing at its price level. It's possible to deliver a solid experience in Y, J and F, BA just isn't doing it.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:05 am
#83
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,464
Quite a fascinating Sunday read 
Quite simply, if BA doesn't work for you there are plenty of other airlines willing to take your money and offer better product/service. I only use BA for
747 UD-only ex-JFK/BOS/PHL to LHR segments and a couple of ZRH-GLA journeys per year. I can get a far better product on CX, QR, LX, LH, EK/QF going east and AA, LX, AF and LH going west. Not to mention some stunning lounges/ground products that BA do not provide.
I've come to the realisation that until a new/better seat is actually installed on an aircraft, lounges are brought up to the standard of competition (not a seat was to be found in JFK GF on Thursday night) and onboard service reflects that of other carriers, they will only get my business on above aforementioned routes. Everything is just talk/bluster - so no need to fly BA on a serious basis until they actually implement their promises - the time required to roll-out some new duvets proves that they are not serious at trying to improve in any sort of radical way.
That said, all of my OW flying gets credited to BAEC which is still a solid programme.
Quite simply, if BA doesn't work for you there are plenty of other airlines willing to take your money and offer better product/service. I only use BA for
747 UD-only ex-JFK/BOS/PHL to LHR segments and a couple of ZRH-GLA journeys per year. I can get a far better product on CX, QR, LX, LH, EK/QF going east and AA, LX, AF and LH going west. Not to mention some stunning lounges/ground products that BA do not provide.
I've come to the realisation that until a new/better seat is actually installed on an aircraft, lounges are brought up to the standard of competition (not a seat was to be found in JFK GF on Thursday night) and onboard service reflects that of other carriers, they will only get my business on above aforementioned routes. Everything is just talk/bluster - so no need to fly BA on a serious basis until they actually implement their promises - the time required to roll-out some new duvets proves that they are not serious at trying to improve in any sort of radical way.
That said, all of my OW flying gets credited to BAEC which is still a solid programme.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:09 am
#84
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold / Hilton Diamond / IHG Diamond Ambassador / Marriot Bonvoy Gold
Posts: 2,536
Quite a fascinating Sunday read
Quite simply, if BA doesn't work for you there are plenty of other airlines willing to take your money and offer better product/service. I only use BA for
747 UD-only ex-JFK/BOS/PHL to LHR segments and a couple of ZRH-GLA journeys per year. I can get a far better product on CX, QR, LX, LH, EK/QF going east and AA, LX, AF and LH going west. Not to mention some stunning lounges/ground products that BA do not provide.
I've come to the realisation that until a new/better seat is actually installed on an aircraft, lounges are brought up to the standard of competition (not a seat was to be found in JFK GF on Thursday night) and onboard service reflects that of other carriers, they will only get my business on above aforementioned routes. Everything is just talk/bluster - so no need to fly BA on a serious basis until they actually implement their promises - the time required to roll-out some new duvets proves that they are not serious at trying to improve in any sort of radical way.
That said, all of my OW flying gets credited to BAEC which is still a solid programme.
Quite simply, if BA doesn't work for you there are plenty of other airlines willing to take your money and offer better product/service. I only use BA for
747 UD-only ex-JFK/BOS/PHL to LHR segments and a couple of ZRH-GLA journeys per year. I can get a far better product on CX, QR, LX, LH, EK/QF going east and AA, LX, AF and LH going west. Not to mention some stunning lounges/ground products that BA do not provide.
I've come to the realisation that until a new/better seat is actually installed on an aircraft, lounges are brought up to the standard of competition (not a seat was to be found in JFK GF on Thursday night) and onboard service reflects that of other carriers, they will only get my business on above aforementioned routes. Everything is just talk/bluster - so no need to fly BA on a serious basis until they actually implement their promises - the time required to roll-out some new duvets proves that they are not serious at trying to improve in any sort of radical way.
That said, all of my OW flying gets credited to BAEC which is still a solid programme.
Absolutely agree.
The jam tomorrow line just won't work anymore and I would go furtherb than you. I move heaven and earth to keep off the clapped out 747 and BA long haul. I prefer AA to the USA and will event take multiple sectors to avoid BA.
A new seta may be coming, improved service may be coming, but until it does, consistently and across the network then its ABBA.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:13 am
#85
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Jul 23, 2017, 10:21 am
#86
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,464
On AA, there is too much service/noise on the short overnight TATLs that limits sleep opportunity, so I take BA as they do ensure that I can sleep well.
Thursday evening was no exception - I had my seat in bed position as soon as the gear was retracted, sleeping pill had been taken 30mins prior during boarding, sleeping clothes changed into just after boarding, CX eyemask on and earplugs in, divider up and duvet/pillow in position. I was woken at the 20mins to landing call by the CC and got changed in the bathroom into my day clothes 10mins out - I don't think the CC appreciated this as they knocked on the bathroom door to get me back to my seat. I slept the whole way, and no service except the bottle of water was provided. This was all much to the annoyance of my seat neighbour who clearly did not manage to sleep. I would not have achieved this on AA, or DL/UA for that matter.
Jul 23, 2017, 10:45 am
#87
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Lemonia. Best Greek ever.
Posts: 2,274
I was about to write a contribution.
But I won't as subject2load has said it all.
When BA get back to being John Lewis, I will fly with them.
My daughter just had a problem with a John Lewis installation of a washing machine. They messed up her kitchen floor. They threw resources and knowledgeable people in to fixing this, and they did it well. Clearly at a high cost to them. Since then, she has bought more stuff from them.
I had a terrible meal on a BA WT+ flight. So did 36 other people. I complained . I received a cut and paste [Mod redaction] letter from BA.
On another BA issue, the CS folk lied to me in writing. That is how low they have now fallen.
subject2load said.............
"Nothing to be 'sad' about (what a strange description !). In truth it's all about just what sort of criteria different people set for 'premium brands'.
It's not the first time that criticism/ negative comment towards BA on this forum has been dismissed as being characterised by an agenda borne out of "alternative facts" - or allegedly unrepresentative of how the general public, outside the narrow prism of Flyertalk, might feel. And certainly it won't be the last.
But perhaps I've been "hoodwinked" by widespread reports of BA's incompetent early handling of the recent IT meltdown ...... hoodwinked too by their lack of innovation in terms of new J class seating & hard product development........ by the wholly unsatisfactory nature of cut & paste, and/or sometimes meaningless, responses to legitimate, often serious, written complaints .......by the ongoing problems surrounding BoB, well over six months after its introduction ......by the airline's low position on Skytrax ratings .......by constant criticism of BA's approach to customer service in the wider print media. And so on, and so on.
It must be said that BA has lots of happy supporters and loyalists. But then lots of people are happy to shop at Lidl and Aldi (as I sometimes am), to fly EasyJet (as I sometimes am), or to buy Ford motor cars. They all offer enough to satisfy many, many people. But very rarely do you hear them being referred to as 'premium brands'.
As stated earlier : the day I can be assured of boarding and flying on a BA aircraft with a similar level of efficiency, product quality, and service standards as experienced when patronising Waitrose or John Lewis, then I can confidently regard them as a premium carrier.
The loads are very good - but let's see if they really can make the improvements that - according to Sr. Cruz himself - are overdue. Time will tell.
They are clearly not John Lewis.
But I won't as subject2load has said it all.
When BA get back to being John Lewis, I will fly with them.
My daughter just had a problem with a John Lewis installation of a washing machine. They messed up her kitchen floor. They threw resources and knowledgeable people in to fixing this, and they did it well. Clearly at a high cost to them. Since then, she has bought more stuff from them.
I had a terrible meal on a BA WT+ flight. So did 36 other people. I complained . I received a cut and paste [Mod redaction] letter from BA.
On another BA issue, the CS folk lied to me in writing. That is how low they have now fallen.
subject2load said.............
"Nothing to be 'sad' about (what a strange description !). In truth it's all about just what sort of criteria different people set for 'premium brands'.
It's not the first time that criticism/ negative comment towards BA on this forum has been dismissed as being characterised by an agenda borne out of "alternative facts" - or allegedly unrepresentative of how the general public, outside the narrow prism of Flyertalk, might feel. And certainly it won't be the last.
But perhaps I've been "hoodwinked" by widespread reports of BA's incompetent early handling of the recent IT meltdown ...... hoodwinked too by their lack of innovation in terms of new J class seating & hard product development........ by the wholly unsatisfactory nature of cut & paste, and/or sometimes meaningless, responses to legitimate, often serious, written complaints .......by the ongoing problems surrounding BoB, well over six months after its introduction ......by the airline's low position on Skytrax ratings .......by constant criticism of BA's approach to customer service in the wider print media. And so on, and so on.
It must be said that BA has lots of happy supporters and loyalists. But then lots of people are happy to shop at Lidl and Aldi (as I sometimes am), to fly EasyJet (as I sometimes am), or to buy Ford motor cars. They all offer enough to satisfy many, many people. But very rarely do you hear them being referred to as 'premium brands'.
As stated earlier : the day I can be assured of boarding and flying on a BA aircraft with a similar level of efficiency, product quality, and service standards as experienced when patronising Waitrose or John Lewis, then I can confidently regard them as a premium carrier.
The loads are very good - but let's see if they really can make the improvements that - according to Sr. Cruz himself - are overdue. Time will tell.
They are clearly not John Lewis.
Last edited by NWIFlyer; Jul 23, 2017 at 11:01 am Reason: Remove masked expletive per rule 16
Jul 23, 2017, 10:47 am
#88
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges and Environmentally Friendly Travel
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 22,213
It is interesting to read the pleas for a new CW seat. I'll join the chorus because after ten years in service, even the best seat in the skies begins looks past it's best.
While I would simply love to see BA reemerge as the industry's innovator, I am little nervous of some of the potential consequences that would inevitably arise as a result of a density reduction, such as the thinning out of D, I and U class inventory and of course those moments of sweet joy when my boarding triggers a double beep. I will also note that if BA adopting the Zodiac Cirrus seat i would be deeply underwhelmed, if BA adopted the Thomson Vantage, i'd be devastated or if BA adopted EK's seat, well, i'd be outraged. Personally, I'd be delighted to see an evolution of the current yin yang concept - one that's wider and offers direct access to the aisle for all.
I agree that BA has over leveraged it's brand which has led to it taking a substantial beating on multiple fronts but it has been in areas other than CW where the brand is greater exposed:
- IRROPs management
- short haul product
- customer services
I realise bashing BA has become a national pastime, much of it deserved but if you read the other forums on FT, BA's competitors are getting tongue lashed too.
While I would simply love to see BA reemerge as the industry's innovator, I am little nervous of some of the potential consequences that would inevitably arise as a result of a density reduction, such as the thinning out of D, I and U class inventory and of course those moments of sweet joy when my boarding triggers a double beep. I will also note that if BA adopting the Zodiac Cirrus seat i would be deeply underwhelmed, if BA adopted the Thomson Vantage, i'd be devastated or if BA adopted EK's seat, well, i'd be outraged. Personally, I'd be delighted to see an evolution of the current yin yang concept - one that's wider and offers direct access to the aisle for all.
I agree that BA has over leveraged it's brand which has led to it taking a substantial beating on multiple fronts but it has been in areas other than CW where the brand is greater exposed:
- IRROPs management
- short haul product
- customer services
I realise bashing BA has become a national pastime, much of it deserved but if you read the other forums on FT, BA's competitors are getting tongue lashed too.
Jul 23, 2017, 11:01 am
#89
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,399
................................................
I agree that BA has over leveraged it's brand which has led to it taking a substantial beating on multiple fronts but it has been in areas other than CW where the brand is greater exposed:
- IRROPs management
- short haul product
- customer services
....................................
I do hope you have not been hoodwinked by alternative facts
Jul 23, 2017, 11:05 am
#90
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NCL
Programs: UA 1MM/*G. DL Gold for one more year.
Posts: 5,305
Sometimes I just need to travel JFK/PHL to LHR for work purposes and AA does not really suit my needs here - there is only 2 things I require: a flatbed seat and sleep.
On AA, there is too much service/noise on the short overnight TATLs that limits sleep opportunity, so I take BA as they do ensure that I can sleep well.
Thursday evening was no exception - I had my seat in bed position as soon as the gear was retracted, sleeping pill had been taken 30mins prior during boarding, sleeping clothes changed into just after boarding, CX eyemask on and earplugs in, divider up and duvet/pillow in position. I was woken at the 20mins to landing call by the CC and got changed in the bathroom into my day clothes 10mins out - I don't think the CC appreciated this as they knocked on the bathroom door to get me back to my seat. I slept the whole way, and no service except the bottle of water was provided. This was all much to the annoyance of my seat neighbour who clearly did not manage to sleep. I would not have achieved this on AA, or DL/UA for that matter.
On AA, there is too much service/noise on the short overnight TATLs that limits sleep opportunity, so I take BA as they do ensure that I can sleep well.
Thursday evening was no exception - I had my seat in bed position as soon as the gear was retracted, sleeping pill had been taken 30mins prior during boarding, sleeping clothes changed into just after boarding, CX eyemask on and earplugs in, divider up and duvet/pillow in position. I was woken at the 20mins to landing call by the CC and got changed in the bathroom into my day clothes 10mins out - I don't think the CC appreciated this as they knocked on the bathroom door to get me back to my seat. I slept the whole way, and no service except the bottle of water was provided. This was all much to the annoyance of my seat neighbour who clearly did not manage to sleep. I would not have achieved this on AA, or DL/UA for that matter.