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The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Dec 18, 17, 12:26 pm
  #1816  
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Originally Posted by Wanderlust888 View Post

Is the cause of delay weather or insufficient fuel?
I would say this is weather, no aircraft can fly with infinite amounts of fuel, and given the bad weather than day many aircraft would spend a lot of time circling around before being forced to divert. No airline would willing want to divert.
Originally Posted by Wanderlust888 View Post
Can I claim the cost of hotel and the train?
Yes to both, so long as the expenditure is deemed to be reasonable
Originally Posted by Wanderlust888 View Post
Why didn't the flight divert to closer airports Dortmund or Cologne?
Well, there are no perfect answers here. FRA is an existing BA station, and benefits from particularly good transport links. The other airports may well have either had weather problems of their own or were overloaded with work, given they are not set up for handling a lot of traffic FRA strikes me as a reasonable option, and better than some other diversions that weekend
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Old Dec 18, 17, 2:41 pm
  #1817  
 
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Hi!

I've been reading this forum a lot the last couple of years but I never posted (so this is my first time!). Sadly, the reason behind this post is that my flight to Madrid tomorrow got cancelled. It was supposed to depart at 15:45 from Heathrow. After all the nerves (I'm coming back to Spain to visit my family for Christmas), I managed to get in one of the previous flights. The new one will depart tomorrow at 13:00

Do you know if I am entitled to any compensation?

Thanks!
Jorge
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Old Dec 18, 17, 2:51 pm
  #1818  
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Hello and welcome Jorge_Gonzalez, it's good to see you here, welcome to the forum and I hope we will see more of you in the future, contributors like you make this forum worth reading! More importantly I hope you enjoy Christmas with your family presently.

I suspect (but don't know) that your flight was cancelled in view of the fog expected tomorrow. That would assume it was cancelled earlier today. If it was cancelled a few days ago then it may be due to other reasons, which may therefore allow some compensation. If it was fog related then unfortunately there is no compensation due for that.
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Old Dec 19, 17, 4:27 pm
  #1819  
 
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Had rather a nice personalised reply from BA re our diverted flight to NCL. Made a change from the normal cut and paste replies of late.
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Old Dec 23, 17, 9:43 pm
  #1820  
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A question for the knowledgeable if I may. I have been wondering what would have happened if the below scenario continued on the track it was going rather than being reversed at the last minute. I have mentioned the issue briefly in a couple of threads but just to satisfy my curiosity now, would like to know where I would have stood in regards to IDB.

Last Tuesday I connected from AMS at LHR to get my flight home to GLA.. I went landslide after arriving from AMS for a couple of ciggies. My onward flight to GLA was at 15:10hrs and I cleared security at approximately 13:00hrs and proceeded to the Galleries North Lounge.

I departed the lounge and got to the boarding gate at 14:15hrs. Was first to arrive at the gate and was travelling in C. The gate had the self boarding gates and when it came time to board, we were instructed to use the e-gates. My boarding pass wouldn’t register so was directed to one of the gate agents. Long story short, the biometrics had failed and required intervention from HAL Security. When the HAL Security manager arrived, it was approximately 15 minutes to departure time and after a few minutes, was evident that he wasn’t going to be able to fix the issue at the gate which led to the gate agent IDBing me. I asked about my rights under EC261 regs to get the reply from the agent, that it wasn’t her fault and she handed me a leaflet without further explanation.

The HAL security Manager took me to go through Immigration again, went to ticketing to get reticketed and at that point he got another call from the same gate for someone with a similar problem to mine so got me through security very quickly and we route-marched back to gate 22 where he confirmed with the agent that I was now cleared to fly domestically and the TRM said I could be put back on the flight sans baggage which I accepted and was told to get on and take whichever seat was free. Luckily my original one was and the doors were closed up as I walked on the plane.

I was fairly lucky to get back on the original service, but, had I not, what would have been my rights? The gate agent denied any responsibility and I can kind of see where she was coming from but after a very long 48 hours travelling and a dose of gastroenteritis, I was feeling a bit precious and there was no guarantee of getting on the next flight 2.5 hours later (next scheduled flight had been cancelled).

Where would I have stood with this one had it gone totally pear shaped. Which party would have been responsible with it being a biometrics failure and what were my rights under EC261 with BA denying fault?

It’s hypothetical now but just interested had it went the other way.

Thanks for any any insight from the experts.

S
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Old Dec 24, 17, 12:35 am
  #1821  
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Originally Posted by Saltire74 View Post
A question for the knowledgeable if I may. I have been wondering what would have happened if the below scenario continued on the track it was going rather than being reversed at the last minute. I have mentioned the issue briefly in a couple of threads but just to satisfy my curiosity now, would like to know where I would have stood in regards to IDB.

Last Tuesday I connected from AMS at LHR to get my flight home to GLA.. I went landslide after arriving from AMS for a couple of ciggies. My onward flight to GLA was at 15:10hrs and I cleared security at approximately 13:00hrs and proceeded to the Galleries North Lounge.

I departed the lounge and got to the boarding gate at 14:15hrs. Was first to arrive at the gate and was travelling in C. The gate had the self boarding gates and when it came time to board, we were instructed to use the e-gates. My boarding pass wouldn’t register so was directed to one of the gate agents. Long story short, the biometrics had failed and required intervention from HAL Security. When the HAL Security manager arrived, it was approximately 15 minutes to departure time and after a few minutes, was evident that he wasn’t going to be able to fix the issue at the gate which led to the gate agent IDBing me. I asked about my rights under EC261 regs to get the reply from the agent, that it wasn’t her fault and she handed me a leaflet without further explanation.

The HAL security Manager took me to go through Immigration again, went to ticketing to get reticketed and at that point he got another call from the same gate for someone with a similar problem to mine so got me through security very quickly and we route-marched back to gate 22 where he confirmed with the agent that I was now cleared to fly domestically and the TRM said I could be put back on the flight sans baggage which I accepted and was told to get on and take whichever seat was free. Luckily my original one was and the doors were closed up as I walked on the plane.

I was fairly lucky to get back on the original service, but, had I not, what would have been my rights? The gate agent denied any responsibility and I can kind of see where she was coming from but after a very long 48 hours travelling and a dose of gastroenteritis, I was feeling a bit precious and there was no guarantee of getting on the next flight 2.5 hours later (next scheduled flight had been cancelled).

Where would I have stood with this one had it gone totally pear shaped. Which party would have been responsible with it being a biometrics failure and what were my rights under EC261 with BA denying fault?

It’s hypothetical now but just interested had it went the other way.

Thanks for any any insight from the experts.

S
I cannot answer your question with any authority, but imagine a situation, where one comes off EDI-LHR to travel LHR-GLA, without any ID, as one doesn't need one, and biometrics fail. I have travelled such itinerary before and this didn't occur, but I can forsee an issue there.
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Old Dec 24, 17, 2:13 am
  #1822  
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Originally Posted by Saltire74 View Post
I was fairly lucky to get back on the original service, but, had I not, what would have been my rights? The gate agent denied any responsibility and I can kind of see where she was coming from but after a very long 48 hours travelling and a dose of gastroenteritis, I was feeling a bit precious and there was no guarantee of getting on the next flight 2.5 hours later (next scheduled flight had been cancelled).

I have a feeling this falls into the category of being too complex and specific for anyone to be totally clear about the position, and even a few small claims judgements would not resolve it. However on balance I feel you would not be entitled to anything other than duty of care. The relevant clause is this:

Originally Posted by EC261 article 2
'denied boarding’ means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight, although they have presented themselves for boarding under the conditions laid down in Article 3(2), except where there are reasonable grounds to deny them boarding, such as reasons of health, safety or security, or inadequate travel documentation;
Note the "reasonable grounds" section. And there is also the role of HAL in this, and to simplify somewhat, BA isn't responsible for HAL's activities except when in a client-supplier relationship, which I don't think is the case here. Now there are some good arguments against this: fundamentally as a Brit in the UK brandishing a UK or even an EU passport then you've done all that is necessary to prove both your right to be in LHR and GLA and your right to travel between the two cities. However from the perspective of the boarding agent, or indeed BA more generally, s/he has "reasonable grounds" to deny you boarding given you didn't clear Ready to Fly. You would be in a stronger position if aspects of EC261 could be levied against airports rather than airlines, and the European Parliament did mull this over a few years back, but that didn't go anywhere.

It looks to me there were two problems. Tail gating, and problems with photos failing (sometimes the biometrics fail for an hour or two) do sometimes happen, and usually the HAL security officer is happy to clear people so long as the UK passport is available. LGW likewise. So I wonder whether there was another problem that prevented you from being onloaded - and that would be a BA issue. From the text above it's not entirely clear whether this came into play, in other words if HAL said that you were OK to travel but BA couldn't fix it for you. Luckily this all academic.
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Old Dec 24, 17, 3:32 am
  #1823  
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post

I have a feeling this falls into the category of being too complex and specific for anyone to be totally clear about the position, and even a few small claims judgements would not resolve it. However on balance I feel you would not be entitled to anything other than duty of care. The relevant clause is this:



Note the "reasonable grounds" section. And there is also the role of HAL in this, and to simplify somewhat, BA isn't responsible for HAL's activities except when in a client-supplier relationship, which I don't think is the case here. Now there are some good arguments against this: fundamentally as a Brit in the UK brandishing a UK or even an EU passport then you've done all that is necessary to prove both your right to be in LHR and GLA and your right to travel between the two cities. However from the perspective of the boarding agent, or indeed BA more generally, s/he has "reasonable grounds" to deny you boarding given you didn't clear Ready to Fly. You would be in a stronger position if aspects of EC261 could be levied against airports rather than airlines, and the European Parliament did mull this over a few years back, but that didn't go anywhere.

It looks to me there were two problems. Tail gating, and problems with photos failing (sometimes the biometrics fail for an hour or two) do sometimes happen, and usually the HAL security officer is happy to clear people so long as the UK passport is available. LGW likewise. So I wonder whether there was another problem that prevented you from being onloaded - and that would be a BA issue. From the text above it's not entirely clear whether this came into play, in other words if HAL said that you were OK to travel but BA couldn't fix it for you. Luckily this all academic.
Thanks ​​​​​​​CWS. It was an ‘interesting’ situation to be in to say the least and did offer up my passport at the earliest opportunity to both the gate agent and HAL manager. Interesting what you say about airports and liability. I thought myself about how liable they should be in certain situations and wondered whether EC261 would cover in the event of IDB due to a failure of one of their processes.

At the end of the day, I did everything that I was required to and at no time up until attempting to board was any issue flagged up which nearly did prevent me from travelling due to a failure of one system or other. I had a reply from HAL Customer Relations this morning. They are now contacting T5 security to investigate and will reply to me when they get the requested information.

I haven’t contacted BA CR and not sure it would gain anything if I did. Sure they would look at it as an issue with HAL Security processes going wrong leading to them refusing boarding but they should have easier systems in place to cover these hiccups. If you’ve got a UK passport and can check APIS which should be in the system if connected from an international flight then they should be able to allow boarding.

Thanks again for your detailed reply CWS.

​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​S
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Old Dec 27, 17, 9:11 am
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Originally Posted by AbileneBound View Post
Filed my response to BA's Defence at CEDR today. This is for a flight cancelled due to the Mixed Fleet cabin crew strike. The timeline is roughly this:

Flight booked for 15th August.
11th August flight cancelled.and booked on a flight 24 hours later instead
13th August I request compensation
2nd September BA respond denying compensation but giving no reason for the cancellation
4th September I ask again.
15 September BA respond a second time this time saying the cancellation was due to the strike
22 September I respond to BA
6 October BA's third response denying compensation.
6th October I file with CEDR
26th October CEDR accept my claim
13th November BA submit their defence
23rd November I submit my response

As you can see, this has dragged on rather!
15th December CEDR say hey have appointed adjudicator.
27th December CEDR tell me that they have decided in my favour and BA now have 20 days to pay me 600 Euro.

Success! In just five short months!
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Old Dec 27, 17, 9:40 am
  #1825  
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Originally Posted by AbileneBound View Post
15th December CEDR say hey have appointed adjudicator.
27th December CEDR tell me that they have decided in my favour and BA now have 20 days to pay me 600 Euro.

Success! In just five short months!
Thanks for reporting back and the detailed timelines, CEDR remains somewhat overloaded at the moment, it seems. To save people paging back, this particular case related to a cancellation on LHR-DFW, which is not Mixed Fleet, but was cancelled during the MF strike period so as to allow WW crews to be redeployed elsewhere.
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Old Dec 27, 17, 9:48 am
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My report upthread included a note that cabin crew had repeatedly told me that my LHR-YVR delay was due to technical problems and an aircraft swap, so I filed a request for compensation. First reaponse says “all delays that day were weather related.” Not surprising, they probably made a decision to just make fraudulent notations in their records that day, which to me is a far bigger issue that my €600.
Anyone have an address for the corporate offices that I could use to push this up a level?
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Old Dec 27, 17, 10:02 am
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Originally Posted by stephem View Post
Anyone have an address for the corporate offices that I could use to push this up a level?
ba.com/thankyou is the best link to use if you want individual staff to be praised by their line managers.

If you want to chase compensation, you should follow the MCOL pre-trial actions (or request a deadlock letter).
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Old Dec 27, 17, 10:12 am
  #1828  
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Originally Posted by stephem View Post
Anyone have an address for the corporate offices that I could use to push this up a level?
I would just follow the process outlined at the top of this thread. As you can see, it is known to work.
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Old Dec 27, 17, 10:50 am
  #1829  
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Originally Posted by AbileneBound View Post
15th December CEDR say hey have appointed adjudicator.
27th December CEDR tell me that they have decided in my favour and BA now have 20 days to pay me 600 Euro.

Success! In just five short months!
thanks for reporting back. This makes the CEDR decision in BAs favour for my claim even more difficult to agree with. Unfortunately there is no way to appeal or even complain about CEDR so I’m now following the legal route.
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Old Dec 27, 17, 10:59 am
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Originally Posted by stephem View Post
My report upthread included a note that cabin crew had repeatedly told me that my LHR-YVR delay was due to technical problems and an aircraft swap, so I filed a request for compensation. First reaponse says “all delays that day were weather related.” Not surprising, they probably made a decision to just make fraudulent notations in their records that day, which to me is a far bigger issue that my €600.
Anyone have an address for the corporate offices that I could use to push this up a level?
Do you want to thank the crew? in that case, what 710 77345 said.
Do you want to go after people you suspect of intentional misrepresentation or concealment of an important fact upon which the victim is meant to rely, and in fact does rely, to the harm of the victim, in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain (AKA the old common law offence of fraud), which is substantially the same as "Fraud by false representation" under the Fraud Act 2006, then it's the police. The might not be very interested though.
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