Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2017 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

Closed Thread

Old Oct 1, 17, 3:59 am
  #1486  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 37,675
Originally Posted by Mattt1 View Post
Iíve had my CEDR response from BA over the MF strike and am currently preparing my rebuttal, would be good to discuss with others who are going through the same thing.
I think it's worth pointing out that this was for cancellation caused by the MF strike, but on a route that MF were not due to be rostered, namely Riyadh. There is an argument which covers MF routes, but a rather stronger one for knock-on impacts. If I was involved with this, I would be focusing on the final words of the relevant sentence in 5.2:
An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Oct 1, 17, 6:40 am
  #1487  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by Mattt1 View Post
I’ve had my CEDR response from BA over the MF strike and am currently preparing my rebuttal, would be good to discuss with others who are going through the same thing.

Their defence obviously wasn’t filed by a member of their legal team as it’s pretty poor.

Edit: Forgot to say, their defence genuinely revolves around a Daily Telegraph article saying that people wouldn’t be eligible for compensation...!!!!!
Hi Matt1,

Your first point of rebuttal should be that media reports carry no legal authority and are irrelevant to the argument.

You should argue that a strike by BA staff cannot be regarded as an extraordinary circumstance as the situation is inherently within the control of the airline. The following clip is just a copy and paste from a Mirror article, but shows what Bott & Co's opinion is. No doubt they will be acting for many claimants using this argument.

Coby Benson, flight delay solicitor at Bott & Co explains: "If a passenger’s flight is cancelled or delayed for more than 3 hours then they are entitled to between €250 and €600 compensation, unless the disruption was caused by extraordinary circumstances: beyond the airline’s control or events that are ‘not inherent’ in the day-to-day activity of an airline.

"In our opinion this is not extraordinary since the events are well within British Airways' control and the management of disgruntled staff is simply part and parcel of running any business, not least an airline."


You could also add the 'all reasonable measures' argument as a backup, just in case the control argument should fail, thus giving you two bites of the cherry.

Last edited by Tyzap; Oct 1, 17 at 8:09 am Reason: clarity.
Tyzap is offline  
Old Oct 1, 17, 6:46 am
  #1488  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 34,767
Originally Posted by mrow View Post
Thatís not correct, the BBC are right, as per https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/f...ts+Sept+29.pdf:
1. First, move the customer to the next available Ryanair flight on the same route. If this option is not available same or next day, then;

2. Move the customer to the next available Ryanair flight from/to a suitable alternative airport/s (for example: Luton or Gatwick in the case of Stansted). If this option is not available same or next day, then;

3. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any one of our agreed disruption partner airlines to their destination as follows; Easyjet, Jet2, Vueling, Cityjet, Aer Lingus, Norwegian or Eurowings airlines. If this option is not available same or next day, then;

4. Offer the customer re-accommodation on any comparable alternative transport (another airline flight, train, bus or car hire) with the cost of this comparable transport ticket to be assessed on a case by case basis.
Originally Posted by mrow View Post
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
Thanks for that quote, which is interesting for future reference. It's clearly an attempt to limit their financial exposure, but it also seems to me that they are mirroring BA's approach with this idea of "partner airlines" (I bet easyJet were surprised to read that!), like the JBA and oneworld relationships. Perhaps this is fair enough as a policy document, but it won't save FR from a strict reading of EC261 which make no such distinctions, it is fully biased in favour of the passengers and with no bias anywhere on keeping costs down for airlines.
I agree. I thought it interesting how the document was written in the form of try 1 and if unsuccessful (based on limits defined by FR) try 2 and so on as opposed to saying that passengers could select whichever option was going to give the best result.

Clearly an attempt to limit exposure on the part of FR but I am not sure how far theyíd get if challenged on it. After all, a flight on BA in 4 hours is more likely to be in the customers best interest than a flight tomorrow on FR. Would be interesting to see whether the Ďsame day or nextí limits would hold water in the event that they were challenged by a passenger who was offered rebooking on a flight tomorrow on FR but refused rebooking onto BA today.
One interesting (to me) thing is that given that this approach follows the CAA's high-profile intervention, it seems possible that the CAA is content with this final position. I haven't seen any more complaints from the CAA that RYR isn't doing what it needs to do.

So it is possible that the CAA is also signalling that it is content for all airlines to adopt a layered approach of this kind. Might BA possibly be drawing some comfort as well as feeling some discomfort from what has happened here?
Globaliser is offline  
Old Oct 1, 17, 12:09 pm
  #1489  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Northern England
Posts: 1,162
My flight was a MF operated flight cancelled due to industrial action.

As a simple engineer that relies on logic and the laws of physics, I've based my argument on EC261 article 5 which states "An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken." (my bold)

Now I've watched enough episodes of Ally McBeal to know that reasoned argument often do not works in the world of legal matters. So far its not worked on BA so I wait to see if it will work with CEDR - Mattt1's response would suggest it does not work on CEDR either. I wait with bated breath.

BTW, do I get anything on FT for hitting 20 years in the BA forum? Only a few months to go!
Tim_T is offline  
Old Oct 1, 17, 2:31 pm
  #1490  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 13
I am traveling with another person in Italy and our flight (BA605, PSA-LHR) departing tomorrow was cancelled with short (1 day) notice. It would be great if some of you can offer to confirm, or disagree on whether my thoughts toward the case that I am facing right now is correct:

Myself: My final destination is LHR and after a lengthy phone call, I have managed to rebook on the same flight departing one day later, on Tuesday. This makes it effectively a 24 hour delay. I am entitled to claim E250 based on the fact that it is a Category 1 flight and has delayed for more than 4 hours.

My partner: She is on a separate PNR and she also had her ticket rebooked on the same flight. Her return flight is in fact PSA-LHR-HKG (all on BA) with 4 hours of stopover. She is entitled to claim E600 as it is a Category 3 flight.

We are both EU citizens but she does not reside in the EU, would this be a problem?

In addition to above, we will also be able to claim expense covering food, hotel and transport to and from the hotel. (I have booked a stay in an ok-ish 3* hotel and have kept some screenshots to show that the price was reasonable)

While rebooking, We have tried to asked the agent the cause of the cancellation but she was not able to find an answer. Am I correct that this would be the only excuse that they may be able to use to stop us from making a claim under EC261? (As they may claim afterwards that the flight was cancelled under extraordinary circumstances)

Finally, although flying two days later, we will also go to PSA tomorrow to return our rented car and will have a chance to visit the counter at the airport. Is there anything that I should beware of, or ask?

Thank you!

Last edited by TheRiverCard; Oct 1, 17 at 2:40 pm
TheRiverCard is offline  
Old Oct 1, 17, 2:55 pm
  #1491  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 37,675
Originally Posted by TheRiverCard View Post
While rebooking, We have tried to asked the agent the cause of the cancellation but she was not able to find an answer. Am I correct that this would be the only part that may hinder us from making a claim under EC261? (As they may claim afterwards that the flight was cancelled under extraordinary circumstances)
Welcome to the BA Forum TheRiverCard, it's good to see you here even if you are keen to leave there! The flight is marked as cancelled due to industrial action:

Code:
DOBA605/02OCT
* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 605 1 MO 02OCT17 
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL) 

 FLIGHT CANCELLED 0833 
 INDU 
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 605 1 MO 02OCT17 
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL 
PSA 1235 MO JCDRI/M YB/G 320 2:25 
 HKMLVNQOSG/G 
LHR 1400 MO 2:25
COMMENTS-
 1.PSA LHR - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD 
 2.PSA LHR - ARRIVES TERMINAL 5 
 3.PSA LHR - 9/ NON-SMOKING 
 4.PSA LHR - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE 
 5.PSA LHR - CO2/PAX* 119.15 KG ECO, 119.15 KG PRE 
 (*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR 
CONFIGURATION-
 320 C 12 M 150
And easyJet is reporting ground handling strike tomorrow. So that doesn't look good for compensation. Hypothetically you seem to be correct on your amounts, provided your partner is more than 4 hours late into Hong Kong, not London. Some links for you:

http://www.easyjet.com/en/help/prepa...?link_megadrop

Originally Posted by easyJet
We have been informed of a Ground Handling Strike in Italy on Monday 2nd October.

We are working to minimise the impact of this strike, but like other airlines flying to and from Italy, there will be cancellations and potential delays.

Although this situation is outside our control, we do understand that it can be a very frustrating situation for all customers travelling.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ve-policy.html

That doesn't affect your right to care expenses. Your hotel seems OK if under £200, so I am sure it's well below that.

By all means check with the desk at PSA airport in case other things are possible, but I would usually advise not ringing BA if you were in your current situation since the airport staff (if they are not striking!) are able to rebook you on to alternative airlines (if they are operating!), however strictly speaking you are only allowed involuntary rebooking per event, and you seem to have had yours now.

But you are otherwise doing all the right things in terms of getting evidence and asking the right questions.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  
Old Oct 1, 17, 3:22 pm
  #1492  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 13
It's a pleasure to meet you, c-w-s and thank you so much for your quick response! While I'm certainly keen to leave Italy, I'm in no hurry in leaving the sub. Being a long time lurker, I was just waiting to find a perfect opportunity like this to make my first post here!

A quick search on google does suggest that we are in a bad shape for compensation and the hotel is indeed quite a bit cheaper than £200. Perhaps what happened to the poor chap who was forced to find a hotel on the same night in London earlier (Last month?) has made me to be a bit more conservative.

I really appreciate your help!
TheRiverCard is offline  
Old Oct 1, 17, 5:00 pm
  #1493  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 40,206
The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.

Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.

CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Often1 is offline  
Old Oct 2, 17, 2:51 am
  #1494  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.

Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.

CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
Control isn't just about dealing with a strike, it's about how a company prevents a strike situation arising in the first place. It's a problem that every company faces.

Good industrial relations should never get to the point where a set of workers feel the need to walk out and good management shouldn't allow their customers become caught up in strike actions.

If it's not within the companies control to sort out their industrial relations then who's responsibility is it?

CEDR will use a single adjudicator to assess a claim along these lines. Any decision by that adjudicator will be their personal decision, so it could go either way. No precedent will be set. The only way to get a definitive answer to this would be for someone to run a test case through the courts.
Tyzap is offline  
Old Oct 2, 17, 2:52 am
  #1495  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 934
Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
The argument that industrial actions are within management's control is a bit silly.

Of course BA can avoid the action by simply capitulating to the demands of staff. But, that is not realistic and defies even commercial reasonableness as a standard.

CEDR must have thousands of claims on roughly the same facts. Doubt it will step outside what amounts to precedent, if not formally so.
It would be interesting to see BA putting this forward as an argument as if they are found liable for compensation then the economic argument changes significantly. It may be hard to argue that extended periods of IA are sufficient to allow an airline to claim extraordinary circumstances when there are remedies available (e.g. QR leases).

The commercial reasonableness for the airline is not a hurdle that someone claiming their right to compensation has to address.
strichener is offline  
Old Oct 2, 17, 2:59 am
  #1496  
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 12,086
Originally Posted by strichener View Post
It would be interesting to see BA putting this forward as an argument as if they are found liable for compensation then the economic argument changes significantly. It may be hard to argue that extended periods of IA are sufficient to allow an airline to claim extraordinary circumstances when there are remedies available (e.g. QR leases).

The commercial reasonableness for the airline is not a hurdle that someone claiming their right to compensation has to address.
It will be if the airline uses it as part of its defence.
Tobias-UK is online now  
Old Oct 2, 17, 8:06 am
  #1497  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 20
CEDR Case Results - BA215 Cancelation on July 8 2107

I just wanted to report back to the thread about the result of our CEDR case. BA has responded with the following:
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
So it seems that BA admits responsibility for flight cancelation compensation under the Chapter 7 of EU261 when the route is not being operated by the Mixed Fleet crew. Thanks for your help, c_w_s!

Originally Posted by max_bos View Post
Thanks for the detailed information, c_w_s! I will definitely update this thread with the outcome of my dispute with BA.
max_bos is offline  
Old Oct 2, 17, 8:11 am
  #1498  
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 12,086
That's great news @max_bos, was this a flight cancelled because of the strike?
Tobias-UK is online now  
Old Oct 2, 17, 8:19 am
  #1499  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post
That's great news @max_bos, was this a flight cancelled because of the strike?
BA was inconsistent in their initial response about the reason: they said it was "operational" when I asked for the explanation for my travel insurance, but then blamed it on the strike in their denial for our EC261 claim. The LHR-BOS route is never operated by the Mixed Fleet crew, so it would be a knock-off effect if it were strike-related.
max_bos is offline  
Old Oct 2, 17, 9:14 am
  #1500  
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 37,675
Originally Posted by max_bos View Post
I just wanted to report back to the thread about the result of our CEDR case. BA has responded with the following:
"We have reviewed your claim for compensation and do apologise that this was not settled for you and your family sooner. You are each entitled to 600.00 EUR for the cancellation of BA0215 on 08 July 2017.".
Thanks for reporting back, very few people in this thread take the time to do this (hint, hint). Your original complaint was here:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28718045-post1257.html

Did you recover all the hotel expenses in the end? I think there was a shortfall there.
golfmad likes this.
corporate-wage-slave is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread