The BA Compensation Thread: Your guide to Regulation 261/2004
#196
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That's not such a bad outcome I guess, personally I prefer a HKG interchange to SIN, though it is a bit longer. From the above, I think BA's handling has a lot to answer for here, since a normal gate arrival would had led to no trouble at all. If you feel hard done by you can give it a go to claim the compensation, I certainly think you have a strong case, but I would be surprised if the airline makes it easy for you.
#197
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I'll leave it to him if he wants to pursue compensation.
He has sent me a photo of paperwork from BA, it states "involve reroute LIB 1315" I guess LIB will mean late inbound aircraft??
BA have issued new ticket and on checking on Cathay website his new flights are showing, but are designated as redemption flights??
He has sent me a photo of paperwork from BA, it states "involve reroute LIB 1315" I guess LIB will mean late inbound aircraft??
BA have issued new ticket and on checking on Cathay website his new flights are showing, but are designated as redemption flights??
#198
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Once the whole thing settles down he can claim credit for the flights to BAEC in the usual way. If he's lucky he might even get a few extra TPs based on it crediting as three flights rather than one.
#199
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...unless the delay was caused by extraordinary circumstances which BA could not have prevented by taking all reasonable precautions.
#200
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There are some significant revisions to EU 261/2004 in the wind; on Feb 5th, the EU passed some amendments which clarifies some things, changes others and introduces more.
Draft changes start from page 11: amending Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 establishing common rules ...
The full lists of amendments to this draft in the passing of this are here in this 2.1 MByte ms-word document.
Starts from page 341: Wednesday, 5 February 2014 - Strasbourg - texts (Part 3)
I have been looking at these and among others (paraphrasing/generalising here) "Mechanical (unless a design/build defect of the aircraft )" will NOT be a get out.
In fact the "exhaustive list" of "extraordinary circumstances" has been defined as an appendix. (If an event is not on the list, it can't be used to avoid compensation.)
What I will note here is the compensation for involuntary Downgrades has been changed to be based on "Flight Price", not "Ticket Price". Definitions for both have been added. See below.
The new Article 10 reads as follows:
Here's newly regulated "flight" and "ticket" "price" definitions:
Of course, (I guess) the law of inadvertent consequences comes into play here and by those definitions, if one were upgraded using points/miles/instrument and subsequently downgraded, all one would get would be the points/miles/instrument back.
Draft changes start from page 11: amending Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 establishing common rules ...
The full lists of amendments to this draft in the passing of this are here in this 2.1 MByte ms-word document.
Starts from page 341: Wednesday, 5 February 2014 - Strasbourg - texts (Part 3)
I have been looking at these and among others (paraphrasing/generalising here) "Mechanical (unless a design/build defect of the aircraft )" will NOT be a get out.
In fact the "exhaustive list" of "extraordinary circumstances" has been defined as an appendix. (If an event is not on the list, it can't be used to avoid compensation.)
What I will note here is the compensation for involuntary Downgrades has been changed to be based on "Flight Price", not "Ticket Price". Definitions for both have been added. See below.
The new Article 10 reads as follows:
Article 10
Upgrading and downgrading
Upgrading and downgrading
- If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.
- If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse
- 30 % of the flight price for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or
- 50 % of the flight pricefor all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights
between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or - 75 % of the flight price for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.
(s) ‘ticket price’ means the full price paid for a ticket, including the air fare and all applicable taxes, charges, surcharges and fees paid for all optional and non-optional services included in the ticket,such as all costs for the check-in, the provision of the tickets and the issuing of the boarding cards and for the carrying a minimum amount of luggage, including an item of hand luggage, an item of checked‑in luggage and essential items, as well as all costs related to payment, such as charges for paying by credit card; .the ticket price published in advance always reflects the final ticket price to be paid.
(t) ‘flight price’ means the value obtained by multiplying the ticket price by the ratio between the distance of the flight and the total distance of the journey(s) covered by the ticket; where a ticket price is not known, the value of any refund shall be the supplement paid for a premium seat on the flight
Last edited by serfty; Feb 8, 2014 at 5:09 am
#201
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One other part of the proposal is that airlines must provide PIRs (property irregularity reports i.e. lost/damaged baggage paperwork) in Irish, Greek, and all other official EU languages!
#202
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Many thanks to serfty for finding this out for us. The process is that the Commission proposes (first link), Parliament revises (second link) and gives it a First Reading, a process taken from the House of Commons. It now goes to the European Council of Ministers (Council of the European Union), which really means the national civil servants, for their scrutiny. If Council approves then it enters into law. More usually Council revises and then it's off to Parliament for a Second Reading and potentially more revision. Council can also veto or block in various ways. So this may take a few more months for the outcome to be clear.
#203
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One wonders whether it will cause competitive disadvantage to EU carriers flying long-haul who must comply with the regulation at both ends of their journeys, as opposed to non-EU carriers who must only comply when leaving the EU.
#204
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I'm sure it makes some people want to fly EU carriers. I certainly do.
#205
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The draft was passed with the following "Exhaustive" list of the circumstances that can be considered "extraordinary" for the purposes of this regulation.
1. The following circumstances shall be considered as extraordinary:
i. natural disasters rendering impossible the safe operation of the flight;
ii. technical problems afflicting the aircraft which are directly caused by a hidden manufacturing defect formally acknowledged as such by the manufacturer or a competent authority arose during the maintenance check preceding the flight or after the aircraft has been released to service, which impinges on flight safety;
iia. damage caused by bird strike
iii. war, political unrest, acts of sabotage or terrorism rendering impossible the safe operation of the flight;
iv. health risks or medical emergencies necessitating the interruption or deviation of the flight concerned;
v. unforeseen air traffic management restrictions or the unforeseen closure of the airspace, including runway closures by the authorities;
vi. meteorological conditions incompatible with flight safety or that have damaged the aircraft in flight or on the tarmac after service release and rendering the safe operation of the flight impossible; and
vii. unforeseen labour disputes at the operating air carrier or at essential service providers such as airports and Air Navigation Service Providers.
i. natural disasters rendering impossible the safe operation of the flight;
ii. technical problems afflicting the aircraft which are directly caused by a hidden manufacturing defect formally acknowledged as such by the manufacturer or a competent authority arose during the maintenance check preceding the flight or after the aircraft has been released to service, which impinges on flight safety;
iia. damage caused by bird strike
iii. war, political unrest, acts of sabotage or terrorism rendering impossible the safe operation of the flight;
iv. health risks or medical emergencies necessitating the interruption or deviation of the flight concerned;
v. unforeseen air traffic management restrictions or the unforeseen closure of the airspace, including runway closures by the authorities;
vi. meteorological conditions incompatible with flight safety or that have damaged the aircraft in flight or on the tarmac after service release and rendering the safe operation of the flight impossible; and
vii. unforeseen labour disputes at the operating air carrier or at essential service providers such as airports and Air Navigation Service Providers.
2. The following circumstances shall not be considered as extraordinary:
i. technical problems inherent in the normal operation of the aircraft, such as a problem identified during the routine maintenance or during the pre-flight check of the aircraft or which arises due to failure to correctly carry out such maintenance or pre-flight check; and
ii. unavailability of flight crew or cabin crew (unless caused by labour disputes).
...
i. technical problems inherent in the normal operation of the aircraft, such as a problem identified during the routine maintenance or during the pre-flight check of the aircraft or which arises due to failure to correctly carry out such maintenance or pre-flight check; and
ii. unavailability of flight crew or cabin crew (unless caused by labour disputes).
...
#206
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It's not a big deal that they deleted the "list of not extraordinary" as they also explicitly said that the "list of extraordinary" is exhaustive.
#207
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I finally got a reply from BA.
I honestly thought that I should be compensated because of what had happened during our flight. There was a technical problem that dragged on for hours while we were all waiting inside the aircraft from 9pm to around 2 am. And the pilot himself told the passengers during his first announcement that they could transfer us to another aircraft but that it would take around 2 hrs to transfer so we might as well just wait for the engineers to fix the problem for an estimated time of 1 and a half hours. But it dragged on and on until 2am. Until they finally decided to delay our flight the next night.
What should I do about this? Should I pursue it? What can I possibly reply to them?
Thanks in advance.
Thank you for contacting us. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.
Your claim for compensation has been refused because flight BA0027 on 09 December 2013 was delayed due to unexpected flight safety shortcomings, which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, British Airways is not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
During the final maintenance checks, we discovered a problem with the nose gear door. There are numerous parts that the airline may be required to replace within a specific timeframe. These parts are kept fully stocked and ready to fit. As this particular ‘part’ was not due to be replaced, this constitutes as extraordinary circumstances.
Unfortunately airline operations are subject to circumstances outside the airline's control. British Airways takes all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight in such circumstances. Consideration is given to whether there are any operational options available before a decision to delay is made. We are sorry that the delay was necessary in this case.
Thank you for following this up with us. I do hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
Your claim for compensation has been refused because flight BA0027 on 09 December 2013 was delayed due to unexpected flight safety shortcomings, which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, British Airways is not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
During the final maintenance checks, we discovered a problem with the nose gear door. There are numerous parts that the airline may be required to replace within a specific timeframe. These parts are kept fully stocked and ready to fit. As this particular ‘part’ was not due to be replaced, this constitutes as extraordinary circumstances.
Unfortunately airline operations are subject to circumstances outside the airline's control. British Airways takes all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight in such circumstances. Consideration is given to whether there are any operational options available before a decision to delay is made. We are sorry that the delay was necessary in this case.
Thank you for following this up with us. I do hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
I honestly thought that I should be compensated because of what had happened during our flight. There was a technical problem that dragged on for hours while we were all waiting inside the aircraft from 9pm to around 2 am. And the pilot himself told the passengers during his first announcement that they could transfer us to another aircraft but that it would take around 2 hrs to transfer so we might as well just wait for the engineers to fix the problem for an estimated time of 1 and a half hours. But it dragged on and on until 2am. Until they finally decided to delay our flight the next night.
What should I do about this? Should I pursue it? What can I possibly reply to them?
Thanks in advance.
#208
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I finally got a reply from BA.
I honestly thought that I should be compensated because of what had happened during our flight. There was a technical problem that dragged on for hours while we were all waiting inside the aircraft from 9pm to around 2 am. And the pilot himself told the passengers during his first announcement that they could transfer us to another aircraft but that it would take around 2 hrs to transfer so we might as well just wait for the engineers to fix the problem for an estimated time of 1 and a half hours. But it dragged on and on until 2am. Until they finally decided to delay our flight the next night.
What should I do about this? Should I pursue it? What can I possibly reply to them?
Thanks in advance.
I honestly thought that I should be compensated because of what had happened during our flight. There was a technical problem that dragged on for hours while we were all waiting inside the aircraft from 9pm to around 2 am. And the pilot himself told the passengers during his first announcement that they could transfer us to another aircraft but that it would take around 2 hrs to transfer so we might as well just wait for the engineers to fix the problem for an estimated time of 1 and a half hours. But it dragged on and on until 2am. Until they finally decided to delay our flight the next night.
What should I do about this? Should I pursue it? What can I possibly reply to them?
Thanks in advance.
At their home base, they could have taken the decision to put you onto another aircraft sooner.
Clearly aircraft should not fly if there are problems but this does not excuse BA from getting passengers to their destinations at the earliest possible opportunity. Using BA's logic, they would deny every compensation claim in the event of a technical issue, which is a nonsense.
#209
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Stick with it. Despite what BA has told you, this is within their control and I do not see how this could constitute extraordinary circumstances.
At their home base, they could have taken the decision to put you onto another aircraft sooner.
Clearly aircraft should not fly if there are problems but this does not excuse BA from getting passengers to their destinations at the earliest possible opportunity. Using BA's logic, they would deny every compensation claim in the event of a technical issue, which is a nonsense.
At their home base, they could have taken the decision to put you onto another aircraft sooner.
Clearly aircraft should not fly if there are problems but this does not excuse BA from getting passengers to their destinations at the earliest possible opportunity. Using BA's logic, they would deny every compensation claim in the event of a technical issue, which is a nonsense.
Originally Posted by ECJ
Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that a technical problem in an aircraft which leads to the cancellation or delay of a flight is not covered by the concept of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ within the meaning of that provision, unless that problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control.
Ask them to review the case in the light of these points, culminating in the phrase, "please respond in the next 10 days since I am unable to let matters rest there". 11 days later give them 7 days notice before action.
#210
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This seems to be their standard response to everyone at the moment. Only the faulty part seems to change. The rest of it is I believe word-for-word identical to the refusal they sent me.
BA has not responded to the letter from my legal representatives within the 14 days requested, so a second letter has been sent. I don't believe they have a leg to stand on in my case, nor in Catmare's, especially in the light of the new developments described by serfty.
BA has not responded to the letter from my legal representatives within the 14 days requested, so a second letter has been sent. I don't believe they have a leg to stand on in my case, nor in Catmare's, especially in the light of the new developments described by serfty.