Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Feb 21, 2017, 10:30 pm
#106
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,061
Since I started following this thread years ago, I remember two cases - perhaps there are a handful more over all of the years of FlyerTalk - where AA had a false positive. In both of those two cases, the original posters were made whole. JonNYC was able to provide a little more insight when I had mentioned this awhile ago.
In one case, I don't think we ever got the full story, but I remember it involved a poster trying to get back to the US from South America. In another case, a fellow poster had his account accessed without permission. He proactively contacted AA but was subsequently put in lockdown mode by corp security. In both cases, the affected members maintained their composure, cooperated fully, and provided what details they could. I believe both of these cases were resolved within a few days.
In OP's case here, even if there was no wrongdoing, the optics of the situation are poor from the perspective of a third party observer. OP's responses to the requested information did not help the situation based on the outcome. AA is holding the cards in these cases, and the burden of proof falls on the member.
In one case, I don't think we ever got the full story, but I remember it involved a poster trying to get back to the US from South America. In another case, a fellow poster had his account accessed without permission. He proactively contacted AA but was subsequently put in lockdown mode by corp security. In both cases, the affected members maintained their composure, cooperated fully, and provided what details they could. I believe both of these cases were resolved within a few days.
In OP's case here, even if there was no wrongdoing, the optics of the situation are poor from the perspective of a third party observer. OP's responses to the requested information did not help the situation based on the outcome. AA is holding the cards in these cases, and the burden of proof falls on the member.
Feb 21, 2017, 10:57 pm
#108
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
Yes, that is probably the ultimate conclusion. All the airline mergers he seen to it that Southwest would be my only option now with all the mergers. Delta would be an option if the flights were not consistently twice as much as AA.
Feb 21, 2017, 11:05 pm
#109
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 22
honestly snowycali, it seems like your attitude about this whole thing, even including towards the other posters in this thread who've tried to be helpful to you, is one of general crankiness and hostility. I'm sure you're frustrated and angry at guilt by association, but as a friendly tip, it's coming across in everything you write on here, and I agree with others' advice here, that is have someone else write the letter to AA, if you do it, write it FOR YOU. I'm just irritated reading what you're writing even though you may not mean to come across that way. As others said, I'm sure that helped shorten the patience level of whoever was asking you for answers at AA.
Since I started following this thread years ago, I remember two cases - perhaps there are a handful more over all of the years of FlyerTalk - where AA had a false positive. In both of those two cases, the original posters were made whole. JonNYC was able to provide a little more insight when I had mentioned this awhile ago.
In one case, I don't think we ever got the full story, but I remember it involved a poster trying to get back to the US from South America. In another case, a fellow poster had his account accessed without permission. He proactively contacted AA but was subsequently put in lockdown mode by corp security. In both cases, the affected members maintained their composure, cooperated fully, and provided what details they could. I believe both of these cases were resolved within a few days.
In OP's case here, even if there was no wrongdoing, the optics of the situation are poor from the perspective of a third party observer. OP's responses to the requested information did not help the situation based on the outcome. AA is holding the cards in these cases, and the burden of proof falls on the member.
In one case, I don't think we ever got the full story, but I remember it involved a poster trying to get back to the US from South America. In another case, a fellow poster had his account accessed without permission. He proactively contacted AA but was subsequently put in lockdown mode by corp security. In both cases, the affected members maintained their composure, cooperated fully, and provided what details they could. I believe both of these cases were resolved within a few days.
In OP's case here, even if there was no wrongdoing, the optics of the situation are poor from the perspective of a third party observer. OP's responses to the requested information did not help the situation based on the outcome. AA is holding the cards in these cases, and the burden of proof falls on the member.
The main problem here - and one you still don't seem to recognize - is that you fed AA a few lines of complete junk. They asked specific questions and most of your responses were along the lines of "you know that already". You don't (or didn't) need to lie to AA, you just needed to provide them with a clear explanation and take some ownership/responsibility for the situation.
Feb 21, 2017, 11:09 pm
#110
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,605
Unless you have been barred from travel on AA, not having an AAdvantage account does not inhibit you from travelling on AA
Feb 21, 2017, 11:11 pm
#111
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CGK/LAX
Programs: KF,JMB, OZ, SPG,AA,UA,AS
Posts: 1,163
I'm sure if you could go back and do things differently you would. We all make mistakes but it's important to learn, move on, and move forward.
Feb 21, 2017, 11:39 pm
#112
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Southern Cali
Programs: AA ExPlat, Marriott Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 2,022
This seems like a most sensible option at this point. You could also credit to another One World airline such as BA or Cathay. Etihad Guest is another option.
Feb 22, 2017, 2:18 am
#113
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
Snowycali -- I wouldn't lie as I don't see how it will get you anywhere.
Those working in AA Corporate Security are looking for evidence or cooperation.
As I think this thread shows, cooperation seems to have some value, even in the case of people who have bought miles or SWU's. Like prosecutors, AA Corporate Security wants info that will help them catch others. On the other, I'm sure they will listen to reason.
If this person is a former girlfriend, why not provide the information I suggested earlier demonstrating a prior relationship -- emails, texts, evidence of gifts, emails from online dating programs, even a Tinder screenshot
Those working in AA Corporate Security are looking for evidence or cooperation.
As I think this thread shows, cooperation seems to have some value, even in the case of people who have bought miles or SWU's. Like prosecutors, AA Corporate Security wants info that will help them catch others. On the other, I'm sure they will listen to reason.
If this person is a former girlfriend, why not provide the information I suggested earlier demonstrating a prior relationship -- emails, texts, evidence of gifts, emails from online dating programs, even a Tinder screenshot
Feb 22, 2017, 2:31 am
#114
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Melbourne
Programs: ►QFWP/LTG►VA WP►HyattExpl.►HiltonGold►ALL Silver
Posts: 21,995
The member in question has stated they were gifted an SWU by an old girlfriend.
It subsequently turned out that this old girlfriend had previously attempted to sell SWU's.
There is no 'defraud' attempt there.
Feb 22, 2017, 4:41 am
#115
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: South Park, Metropolis
Programs: AA LT PLT 3MM, Hilton/Marriott/SPG/Club Carlson GLD, IHG PLT
Posts: 4,608
As of this point, I have yet to see if OP has realized the errors he made on his responses to the questioning by AA. I just do not see him being apologetic about what has happened. OP, there is only one person to be angry with, and that is the girlfriend. It was her actions that caused AA to look into your account on the suspicion of fraud, followed with your lack of cooperation and that ultimately caused the closure of your account. This is what you need to realize, you just don't seem aware and sorry about it.
OP, my only suggestion to you is to stay away from this forum for some time to cool off, you are being defensive towards a group that is trying to help. Make a rough draft for that HAIL MARY letter that you are planning on sending, get the address in question, have another person read the letter to see that you are not being defensive. Good luck in your quest as it will take time, it is up to AA to determine if they want your participation in AAdvantage program and bring out your account from the death, if you need to travel in the meantime, go SW, I pressume you can still use AA, just don't enter a FF # or better credit to other program, AS, BA, CX, etc.
Last edited by arollins; Feb 22, 2017 at 5:14 am
Feb 22, 2017, 5:17 am
#117
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: South Park, Metropolis
Programs: AA LT PLT 3MM, Hilton/Marriott/SPG/Club Carlson GLD, IHG PLT
Posts: 4,608
Feb 22, 2017, 5:48 am
#118
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: AUH
Posts: 8,267
Originally Posted by arollins
Wouldn't lack of cooperation on OP part to AA constitute "defraud AA"?
The use of the SWU is personal gain, isn't it?
The OP can be called many things - negligent, reckless, misguided - but "defrauding" is not one of them, at least based on the released facts to date.
Feb 22, 2017, 5:57 am
#119
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
Feb 22, 2017, 5:58 am
#120
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
I believe RJW may be skeptical of the OP's description of the facts in light of his approach to AA corporate security. I'm taking OP's description at face value and presume he must have some evidence of his current/former relationship with SWU gifter.
Notwithstanding OP's description of the facts, however, a reasonable person would probably say AA's suspicion in these circumstances makes sense, absent some evidence to the contrary.
Notwithstanding OP's description of the facts, however, a reasonable person would probably say AA's suspicion in these circumstances makes sense, absent some evidence to the contrary.