Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Feb 22, 2017, 5:58 am
#121
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Feb 22, 2017, 8:54 am
#122
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: New York
Programs: AA EXP 1.0mm, not sure where I am with hotels these days
Posts: 2,795
Wouldn't lack of cooperation on OP part to AA constitute "defraud AA"?
As of this point, I have yet to see if OP has realized the errors he made on his responses to the questioning by AA. I just do not see him being apologetic about what has happened. OP, there is only one person to be angry with, and that is the girlfriend. It was her actions that caused AA to look into your account on the suspicion of fraud, followed with your lack of cooperation and that ultimately caused the closure of your account. This is what you need to realize, you just don't seem aware and sorry about it.
As of this point, I have yet to see if OP has realized the errors he made on his responses to the questioning by AA. I just do not see him being apologetic about what has happened. OP, there is only one person to be angry with, and that is the girlfriend. It was her actions that caused AA to look into your account on the suspicion of fraud, followed with your lack of cooperation and that ultimately caused the closure of your account. This is what you need to realize, you just don't seem aware and sorry about it.
Feb 22, 2017, 9:11 am
#123
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
I was willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt, but the subsequent discussion pretty much killed that. I've followed this thread for years, and the posters who react to advice with belligerence, obfuscation, and name-calling are rarely (if ever), shall we say, innocent of the charges.
Feb 22, 2017, 10:04 am
#124
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
Here's a wild thought. No one knows what the lady in question might have told AA. She might be telling her ex-boyfriend one thing and AA Corporate Security something else. We already know she's dishonest in that she did sell, or attempt to sell, unused SWUs.
"He gave me cash in a verbal agreement and made me promise to not tell anyone, especially not the airline."
Could happen.
"He gave me cash in a verbal agreement and made me promise to not tell anyone, especially not the airline."
Could happen.
Feb 22, 2017, 10:23 am
#125
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
Posts asking members to violate others' privacy are serious violations of the FlyerTalk Rules we all agree to abide by in turn for membership privileges. Posts have been deleted. Further posts of this nature could result in a suspension of membership privileges.
/Moderator
/Moderator
Feb 23, 2017, 6:46 am
#126
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Sad thing is, being the buyer of a SWU (say as opposed to a seller or, obviously, by a huge measure, a broker (even a hobbyist one, etc.)) is such a "low level" offense that simply cooperating and getting it over with would be such a painless and relatively penalty-free exercise.
Now, if one decides they don't wanna play that game (as in -not- cooperate,) that's most certainly one's prerogative in a case like this. But then not much sense in getting indignant and outraged in the aftermath.
Now, if one decides they don't wanna play that game (as in -not- cooperate,) that's most certainly one's prerogative in a case like this. But then not much sense in getting indignant and outraged in the aftermath.
Feb 23, 2017, 8:44 am
#127
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
This incident points to the importance of a series of missteps:
1. When this happened, getting hot under the collar and asserting that this must somehow be illegal is natural. At the same time, only Snowycali has the facts, so he has to do the writing. Best thing to do is to take a pause and to have someone else level-headed review and edit everything that goes out.
2. It still is not clear to me that Snowycali has read the t&c of the program. That would seem to be pretty important to do before responding to the first email, let alone before sending anything further. At a minimum, that would drive home the fact that AA holds every card there is to be held.
3. A SWU is a valuable item. AA spends a lot of money tracking down and eliminating fraud. The people who do this are not customer service types. They are investigators. When Snowycali was asked for his factual input, the investigator really meant it. A response such as "it was a gift" is a legal conclusion not a fact. Clearly the investigator was prompting for a description of the circumstances.
4. Depending on what you think someone else told the investigator is a big mistake. You may think you know what was said, but you do not know that your "friend" did not say or do something to save her EXP status. And even if not, you were asked for your perspective, not for hers.
Put yourself in the AA security investigator's shoes and read through what you sent. What would you do?
It is probably all over, but as others note, sending one more communication can't get you more fired than you are (I suppose that AA could fire you as a customer, but that seems a bit over the top).
If you do this, apologize. Go back to the beginning. Answer the questions factually. Or don't.
But, there are others here who may face this problem. So, the take a breath & have someone else read your submission is important.
1. When this happened, getting hot under the collar and asserting that this must somehow be illegal is natural. At the same time, only Snowycali has the facts, so he has to do the writing. Best thing to do is to take a pause and to have someone else level-headed review and edit everything that goes out.
2. It still is not clear to me that Snowycali has read the t&c of the program. That would seem to be pretty important to do before responding to the first email, let alone before sending anything further. At a minimum, that would drive home the fact that AA holds every card there is to be held.
3. A SWU is a valuable item. AA spends a lot of money tracking down and eliminating fraud. The people who do this are not customer service types. They are investigators. When Snowycali was asked for his factual input, the investigator really meant it. A response such as "it was a gift" is a legal conclusion not a fact. Clearly the investigator was prompting for a description of the circumstances.
4. Depending on what you think someone else told the investigator is a big mistake. You may think you know what was said, but you do not know that your "friend" did not say or do something to save her EXP status. And even if not, you were asked for your perspective, not for hers.
Put yourself in the AA security investigator's shoes and read through what you sent. What would you do?
It is probably all over, but as others note, sending one more communication can't get you more fired than you are (I suppose that AA could fire you as a customer, but that seems a bit over the top).
If you do this, apologize. Go back to the beginning. Answer the questions factually. Or don't.
But, there are others here who may face this problem. So, the take a breath & have someone else read your submission is important.
Last edited by Often1; Feb 23, 2017 at 10:50 am
Feb 23, 2017, 9:02 am
#128
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sun Prairie, WI
Programs: AA Executive Platinum, HH Diamond, National Executive
Posts: 1,786
This incident points to the importance of a series of missteps:
1. When this happened, getting hot under the collar and asserting that this must somehow be illegal is natural. At the same time, only Snowycali has the facts, so he has to do the writing. Best thing to do is to take a pause and to have someone else level-headed review and edit everything that goes out.
2. It still is not clear to me that Snowycali has read the t&c of the program. That would seem to be pretty important to do before responding to the first email, let alone before sending anything further. At a minimum, that would drive home the fact that AA holds every card there is to be held.
3. A SWU is a valuable item. AA spends a lot of money tracking down and eliminating fraud. The people who do this are not customer service types. They are investigators. When Snowycali was asked for his factual input, the investigator really meant it. A response such as "it was a gift" is a legal conclusion not a fact. Clearly the investigator was prompting for a description of the circumstances.
4. Depending on what you think someone else told the investigator is a big mistake. You may think you know what was said, but you do not know that your "friend" did not say or do something to save her EXP status. And even if not, you were asked for your perspective, not for hers.
Put yourself in the AA security investigator's shoes and read through what you send. What would you do?
It is probably all over, but as others note, sending one more communication can't get you more fired than you are (I suppose that AA could fire you as a customer, but that seems a bit over the top).
If you do this, apologize. Go back to the beginning. Answer the questions factually. Or don't.
But, there are others here who may face this problem. So, the take a breath & have someone else read your submission is important.
1. When this happened, getting hot under the collar and asserting that this must somehow be illegal is natural. At the same time, only Snowycali has the facts, so he has to do the writing. Best thing to do is to take a pause and to have someone else level-headed review and edit everything that goes out.
2. It still is not clear to me that Snowycali has read the t&c of the program. That would seem to be pretty important to do before responding to the first email, let alone before sending anything further. At a minimum, that would drive home the fact that AA holds every card there is to be held.
3. A SWU is a valuable item. AA spends a lot of money tracking down and eliminating fraud. The people who do this are not customer service types. They are investigators. When Snowycali was asked for his factual input, the investigator really meant it. A response such as "it was a gift" is a legal conclusion not a fact. Clearly the investigator was prompting for a description of the circumstances.
4. Depending on what you think someone else told the investigator is a big mistake. You may think you know what was said, but you do not know that your "friend" did not say or do something to save her EXP status. And even if not, you were asked for your perspective, not for hers.
Put yourself in the AA security investigator's shoes and read through what you send. What would you do?
It is probably all over, but as others note, sending one more communication can't get you more fired than you are (I suppose that AA could fire you as a customer, but that seems a bit over the top).
If you do this, apologize. Go back to the beginning. Answer the questions factually. Or don't.
But, there are others here who may face this problem. So, the take a breath & have someone else read your submission is important.
I'll add that this time of year is obviously the busiest time for AA investigators. You don't hear of people giving away SWUs in June but come January/February when they are expiring, people are trying to unload the SWUs so they don't go unused.
It would be natural for AA to take a much closer look at who is using the SWUs and I wouldn't be surprised if they start asking more questions this time of year. They aren't placing guilt on the user, rather trying to uncover who is using someone else's SWU. Simply providing factual answers would likely be enough but when someone responds the way Snowycali did, you can't fault AA for thinking something fishy was going on.
Feb 23, 2017, 12:04 pm
#132
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Your post is a little bit unclear.
Are you saying that someone else tried to sell your AA miles online without your knowledge or permission and that AA closed your account?
You really need to post the entire set of details as to what happened (without providing any private information).
Are you saying that someone else tried to sell your AA miles online without your knowledge or permission and that AA closed your account?
You really need to post the entire set of details as to what happened (without providing any private information).
Feb 23, 2017, 12:27 pm
#134
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4
Your post is a little bit unclear.
Are you saying that someone else tried to sell your AA miles online without your knowledge or permission and that AA closed your account?
You really need to post the entire set of details as to what happened (without providing any private information).
Are you saying that someone else tried to sell your AA miles online without your knowledge or permission and that AA closed your account?
You really need to post the entire set of details as to what happened (without providing any private information).
Feb 23, 2017, 12:48 pm
#135
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2010
Programs: AA
Posts: 14,741
Yes, exactly. AA send me an email saying my account is involved in an attempted online sale or barter. And as a result, all my miles has been deducted from my account. I have called AA customer service, they said the only way is to reply to the email that I received. I replied to the email, but I didn't get any response. What should I do now in order to get my miles back?