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IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)

IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation (master thread)

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Old Feb 25, 19, 1:28 pm   -   Wikipost
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IDB / Involuntarily Denied Boarding on AA & Compensation


NOTE: See AA Bump Rates; compensation for VDB / Voluntary Denied Boarding (consolidated) for VOLUNTARY denied boarding.

Passengers involuntarily denied boarding on AA are denied usually after calls for volunteers to accept vouchers (and occasionally variable other benefits), usually beginning at $200 or $300 but possibly going significantly higher, depending on passenger response. See more below, from AA Conditions of Carriage.

Link to AA Conditions of Carriage, "Oversales"

"DBC" (involuntarily) denied boarding compensation is governed in the USA by "14 CFR 250.5 - Amount of denied boarding compensation for passengers denied boarding involuntarily".

Link to CFR §250.5

CFR §250.2b Carriers to request volunteers for denied boarding.

(a) In the event of an oversold flight, every carrier shall request volunteers for denied boarding before using any other boarding priority. A “volunteer” is a person who responds to the carrier's request for volunteers and who willingly accepts the carriers' offer of compensation, in any amount, in exchange for relinquishing the confirmed reserved space. Any other passenger denied boarding is considered for purposes of this part to have been denied boarding involuntarily, even if that passenger accepts the denied boarding compensation.

(b) Every carrier shall advise each passenger solicited to volunteer for denied boarding, no later than the time the carrier solicits that passenger to volunteer, whether he or she is in danger of being involuntarily denied boarding and, if so, the compensation the carrier is obligated to pay if the passenger is involuntarily denied boarding. If an insufficient number of volunteers come forward, the carrier may deny boarding to other passengers in accordance with its boarding priority rules.

14 CFR §250.9 Written explanation of denied boarding compensation and boarding priorities, and verbal notification of denied boarding compensation.

(a) Every carrier shall furnish passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from flights on which they hold confirmed reserved space immediately after the denied boarding occurs, a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers' boarding priority rules and criteria. The carrier shall also furnish the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions which are in the charge of a person employed exclusively by the carrier, or by it jointly with another person or persons, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.
Link to US Dept. of Transportation Aviation Consumer Protection Division's "Fly-Rights - A Consumer Guide to Air Travel" section on Overbooking

In the European Union, EC261/2004 governs denied boarding compensation.

Link to EC261 / EC 261/2004 complaints and AA (master thread)

On American Airlines, you are sometimes ineligible for IDB as allowed by the USDOT:

Code:
If a flight is oversold (more passengers hold confirmed reservations than 
 there are seats available), no one may be denied boarding against his or her will 
 until airline personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservation 
 willingly, in exchange for compensation of the airline’s choosing. If there are not 
 enough volunteers, other passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in 
 accordance with the following boarding priority of American. In such events, 
 American will usually deny boarding based upon check-in time, but we may also 
 consider factors such as severe hardships, fare paid, and status within the 
 AAdvantage® program.
 
 If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of 
 ‘‘denied boarding compensation’’ from the airline unless:
 
 - You have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and 
 reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation 
 under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
 
 - You are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
 
 You are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted 
 for safety or operational reasons; or
 
 - On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied 
 boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
 
 - You are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than
 specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section 
 for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
 
 - The airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned 
 to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the 
 planned arrival time of your original flight.
The previous thread is http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...solidated.html

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Old Jan 31, 15, 7:10 am
  #61  
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Originally Posted by rkaradi View Post
41 bumps on my flight last night. I think more then half were IDB. Crj 900 den-lax. Complete fiasco 4 hour delay. Was not given any option and was never even asked if I'd VDB since 1/2 guests were on plane for most of that time. Muself included. When I was yanked off Full fare F and ex plat I was slightly stunned and so we're the 6 other F passangers who were taken off.

Given 500 in vouchers. Was told that was all I could get. Would prefer a check or more comp. any suggestions? It was a really really awful experience.
I've never heard of 41 IDB - wow. That's about 1/2 the flight. Were you rebooked from an earlier flight that was cancelled?

Google DOT IDB rules and you will find a .pdf document that outlines the compensation due a passenger - its based on a combination of the fare paid and length of delay.

The problem may be that you accepted the voucher. Did you sign anything? If so, it may have included a proviso noting that you waived your right for any future compensation.
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Old Jan 31, 15, 10:55 am
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Originally Posted by rkaradi View Post
41 bumps on my flight last night. I think more then half were IDB. Crj 900 den-lax. Complete fiasco 4 hour delay. Was not given any option and was never even asked if I'd VDB since 1/2 guests were on plane for most of that time. Muself included. When I was yanked off Full fare F and ex plat I was slightly stunned and so we're the 6 other F passangers who were taken off.

Given 500 in vouchers. Was told that was all I could get. Would prefer a check or more comp. any suggestions? It was a really really awful experience.
So how DID you fly den-lax?

When were you supposed to arrive? When did you arrive?

What were the factors cause info the 4 hr delay and fiasco....

Sounds like clear IDB ... But do answer question about signing voucher.
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Old Jan 31, 15, 12:14 pm
  #63  
 
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Originally Posted by bdemaria View Post
The problem may be that you accepted the voucher. Did you sign anything? If so, it may have included a proviso noting that you waived your right for any future compensation.
This is not actually a problem. The DOT has made it clear that if the passenger isn't given the option to travel on the booked flight, it's IDB regardless of whether the passenger accepts some compensation on the spot. Consider it a nice donation from American.
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Old Jan 31, 15, 1:01 pm
  #64  
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Originally Posted by LaserSailor View Post
Smiling because s/he knows your chance of getting it are nil.
Not nil, but definitely very slim.

Admittedly some time ago, I saw two pax take IDB and get: $1,200 per person, upgrade to Business the following day, plus taxi, meals and lodging vouchers. The two backpacking students headed to Japan were overjoyed. Others dream of such IDB conditions.

I've added a wikipost to this thread with some information and resource links.

Last edited by JDiver; Jan 31, 15 at 1:42 pm
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Old Jan 31, 15, 11:57 pm
  #65  
 
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Originally Posted by bdemaria View Post
I've never heard of 41 IDB - wow. That's about 1/2 the flight. Were you rebooked from an earlier flight that was cancelled?

It's complicated at least one flight was cancelled by AA Den-LAX on 1/30. but possibly 2 or more. I was on US Den-Phx-Sfo and rebbked 4 hours prior to Den-Lax-Sfo dure to weather issues in Phx. There were over 20 on standby but I was confirmed.

Google DOT IDB rules and you will find a .pdf document that outlines the compensation due a passenger - its based on a combination of the fare paid and length of delay.

The problem may be that you accepted the voucher. Did you sign anything? If so, it may have included a proviso noting that you waived your right for any future compensation.
Yes I signed something, in fact I was told there was no option and that the comp was $150, ad they gave $500 as goodwill. I was just so ready to leave airport after 6 hours. I asked about more comp, and told not. I asked for the sup, told they were busy and I was just fed up and tired. I had 6 hours before my flight, so I just wanted to go.

Originally Posted by Exec_Plat View Post
So how DID you fly den-lax?

When were you supposed to arrive? When did you arrive? We were to arrive 9 PM PST flight left at 11:04 PM MST and arrived 12:34 PM PST

What were the factors cause info the 4 hr delay and fiasco....

late arrival, and apparently weather over Rockies that caused for weight reduction.

Sounds like clear IDB ... But do answer question about signing voucher.
I messed up, I should have pushed but was tired and needed to go sleep


Originally Posted by jordyn View Post
This is not actually a problem. The DOT has made it clear that if the passenger isn't given the option to travel on the booked flight, it's IDB regardless of whether the passenger accepts some compensation on the spot. Consider it a nice donation from American.
Let's hope.
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Old Feb 1, 15, 2:21 am
  #66  
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Originally Posted by rkaradi View Post
Yes I signed something, in fact I was told there was no option and that the comp was $150, ad they gave $500 as goodwill. I was just so ready to leave airport after 6 hours. I asked about more comp, and told not. I asked for the sup, told they were busy and I was just fed up and tired. I had 6 hours before my flight, so I just wanted to go.


I messed up, I should have pushed but was tired and needed to go sleep

Let's hope.
Are you sure there were 41 IDBs or just 41 people on the standby list? Did they make an announcement saying 41 were IDB, or how else did you find out?
You mention weight reduction. Was the flight oversold or were you removed due to weight issues because of weather? If it was due to weigh restrictions, you are not entitled to IDB

Last edited by mvoight; Feb 1, 15 at 2:30 am
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Old Feb 1, 15, 8:21 am
  #67  
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Originally Posted by relangford View Post
This might be getting near OMNI, but ... what is "elderly"? Who decides (AA or the individual)? Is the oldest person on the plane? Is the cutoff at 60 or 70 or 80 or ... ?

As an aside, it seems that everytime an announcement is made for VBD, it is the outbound flight on a business trip or for the last flight of the day - meaning not worth it. In about 40 years of flying, I have gotten VDB twice and IDB never.
The plan doesn't use "elderly" as a sole condition, so no need to worry about that.

8. Those passengers who will experience a severe hardship as a result of being denied boarding. These customers might include those who are elderly, disabled, or children traveling alone.
Age alone isn't such a factor. Being frail and elderly would be, however, e.g. mobility impairment, "senility", etc.
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Old Feb 1, 15, 8:27 am
  #68  
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Originally Posted by rkaradi View Post
41 bumps on my flight last night. I think more then half were IDB. Crj 900 den-lax. Complete fiasco 4 hour delay. Was not given any option and was never even asked if I'd VDB since 1/2 guests were on plane for most of that time. Muself included. When I was yanked off Full fare F and ex plat I was slightly stunned and so we're the 6 other F passangers who were taken off.

Given 500 in vouchers. Was told that was all I could get. Would prefer a check or more comp. any suggestions? It was a really really awful experience.
Ironically, if the IDB was because of weight and balance issues on an aircraft with capacity under 60, you'd not be eligible for a sou. As stated in the wiki:

"unless"... "On a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload..."
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Old Feb 1, 15, 8:44 am
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Are you sure there were 41 IDBs or just 41 people on the standby list? Did they make an announcement saying 41 were IDB, or how else did you find out?
You mention weight reduction. Was the flight oversold or were you removed due to weight issues because of weather? If it was due to weigh restrictions, you are not entitled to IDB
100% positive it was weight and balance. The Pilot told us 3x and so did the gate agent. Also since I was in row 1 I was able to hear the staff chatting, and this came up several times since after the first offload they said they could only board 31, and boarded 41 and then took 10 off. People were still being processed from the first round.

Lastly, I asked the gate agent how many were being taken off on and they told me. Again, it was not hard to figure out how many were IDB, since more then half the plane was empty when I was removed and nobody else got on.

I know this is hard to believe, I've never seen this many IDB's before in all my years of weekly travel, but it happened.
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Old Feb 1, 15, 9:09 am
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Just for reference, here's the DOT letter that clearly explains that the passenger accepts compensation, it doesn't change the situation from IDB to VDB unless you have the option to board the plane.

Note that this letter only relates to how airlines report IDB vs VDB to them, but I think the interpretation is the only reasonable one (the airline can't claim you "volunteered" for anything if you didn't have any other option) and you could use this letter in a follow-on complaint to the DOT or even small claims court if it came to that.

(Interestingly, this indicates that the airlines have to report IDB if the flight is oversold even if the passenger checks in late or otherwise gets to their destination in a timely manner, even though no compensation would be due in either of those cases.)
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Old Feb 1, 15, 11:03 am
  #71  
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Originally Posted by mvoight View Post
Are you sure there were 41 IDBs or just 41 people on the standby list? Did they make an announcement saying 41 were IDB, or how else did you find out?
You mention weight reduction. Was the flight oversold or were you removed due to weight issues because of weather? If it was due to weigh restrictions, you are not entitled to IDB
Whether someone is entitled to IDB compensation when there is a weight and balance issue depends on the size of the aircraft. In such situations, small planes (i.e., small commuter aircraft or certain xmall RJs) are exempt from the IDB rules, but weight and balance would not be an exemption for mainline service.
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Old Feb 1, 15, 12:32 pm
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Originally Posted by rkaradi View Post
100% positive it was weight and balance. The Pilot told us 3x and so did the gate agent. Also since I was in row 1 I was able to hear the staff chatting, and this came up several times since after the first offload they said they could only board 31, and boarded 41 and then took 10 off. People were still being processed from the first round.

Lastly, I asked the gate agent how many were being taken off on and they told me. Again, it was not hard to figure out how many were IDB, since more then half the plane was empty when I was removed and nobody else got on.

I know this is hard to believe, I've never seen this many IDB's before in all my years of weekly travel, but it happened.
They could only put 31 people total on the flight?
I was confusing the CRJ 900 with a smaller regional jet

Last edited by mvoight; Feb 1, 15 at 12:52 pm
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Old Feb 1, 15, 9:04 pm
  #73  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Whether someone is entitled to IDB compensation when there is a weight and balance issue depends on the size of the aircraft. In such situations, small planes (i.e., small commuter aircraft or certain xmall RJs) are exempt from the IDB rules, but weight and balance would not be an exemption for mainline service.
As indicated previously indicated and in the wiki, the aircraft exempted are those with a capacity of 60 or fewer. CRJ900 is significantly over that, with a capacity of 79.
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Old Jul 20, 15, 9:46 am
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Was this an IDB?

Hello FT,

Quick question regarding a situation this AM at ORD.

I was lacking a seat assignment for my 6:30AM flight (due to a likely oversold flight), and showed up to ORD and attempted to check in at 5:50. The machine would not print me a seat assignment request card. I spoke with agent (still prior to 6am) and she similarly refused to print a boarding pass. The supervisor likewise refused. All of this transpired before 6am (there was no line for the agents, and she called a supervisor over quickly).

The supervisor and agent claimed that I was too late to check-in, but scrambled when I pointed out that it was still more than 30 mins to the flight, ultimately claiming that I had to be at the airport 90 minutes early to be entitled to a seat. I know that the checked baggage cutoff at ORD is 45 mins, but I was not checking a bag, and was under the impression that the general check in cutoff was 30 mins.

I was eventually given a seat on the 7:15 flight, but missed a meeting as a result). Should this have been treated as an IDB situation given the timeline, or was I SOL by arriving 40 mins before my flight?

Thanks for any input.
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Old Jul 20, 15, 9:54 am
  #75  
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Get the UA app and checkin or checkin online.

That said, you should have been ok with checkin at T-40, as T-30 is the rule at ORD.\http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont...s/default.aspx
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