Virgin America tentatively approved. Effect on AA out of SFO?
Jul 20, 2007, 9:00 pm
#61
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NJ
Programs: UA LTG, AA LTG, Bonvoy LTP, IHG Plat, LHW Sterling
Posts: 2,405
Jul 21, 2007, 8:40 am
#63
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NJ
Programs: UA LTG, AA LTG, Bonvoy LTP, IHG Plat, LHW Sterling
Posts: 2,405
Jul 21, 2007, 10:21 am
#64
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: OAK/SFO/SJC
Programs: AA Plat 2MM+, HHonors, Amtrak GuestRewards
Posts: 1,158
Perhaps AA already has pretty solid bookings on those routes through the end of summer. They've got an SFO/OAK - ORD fare sale now, but the fares only get easy to book starting Labor Day weekend.
-Hayden
-Hayden
Jul 21, 2007, 12:21 pm
#66
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: MSP (and will only fly NWA in re-routes if I HAVE to)
Programs: AA EXP (4.5MM), hotel programs as needed
Posts: 5,800
But just on a flier, I tried to book something that would work from me from MSP. MSP-LGA (new service beginning in Sept) / JFK-LAX /[overnight] / LAX-DFW-MSP came in at $395 plus taxes.
Really thought that was a decent deal so took it!
Jul 21, 2007, 11:31 pm
#67
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SJC/SFO & ORD
Programs: LT Gold/BA Executive Club/AS MP/Marriott
Posts: 1,646
Depends on how many flights per day and what the cost is for premium service (Business/First) that Virgin will have. But look for cut backs from someone (AA, UA, DL, B6) if Virgin adds a lot of flights with low cost premium services. AA historically cuts back when the have fare competition. IUnlikely AA SFO-JFK will go to zero. BOS AA transcon is down 50% with competition.
The problem for the legacy airlines is likely to be the HUGE gap in the main cabins. Anyone not always flying F/J will look stupid flying the legacy coach for around the same price. VA will have no problems filling their 12 premium seats with all paid seats. How many of the AA/UA/CO premium seats will be paid seats to justify their wide bodies?
Looks like whatever market share VA wants to take in these routes it is there for the taking especially in the beginning when the planes and interiors are new and the buzz will be there. How much effect it will have on the legacies remains to be seen.
The thing that VA makes dangerous for legacy airlines is that as a consumer branding company Virgin (and it will inherit that culture regardless of the level of investment from outside the US) will outsmart all the legacy airlines marketing combined (not that it is difficult to do with the type of people AA has got in its marketing).
Expect to see some very clever ads and gimmicks where the competitor's outdated cabins and service will be exposed brutally as your "father's oldsmobile". The target market for VA main cabins will not be the bottom feeding families that fly WN but the young and the chic students and professionals that will show brand loyalty (as opposed to FF loyalty) as they grow up.
All in all, it is great for the consumer!
Looks like whatever market share VA wants to take in these routes it is there for the taking especially in the beginning when the planes and interiors are new and the buzz will be there. How much effect it will have on the legacies remains to be seen.
The thing that VA makes dangerous for legacy airlines is that as a consumer branding company Virgin (and it will inherit that culture regardless of the level of investment from outside the US) will outsmart all the legacy airlines marketing combined (not that it is difficult to do with the type of people AA has got in its marketing).
Expect to see some very clever ads and gimmicks where the competitor's outdated cabins and service will be exposed brutally as your "father's oldsmobile". The target market for VA main cabins will not be the bottom feeding families that fly WN but the young and the chic students and professionals that will show brand loyalty (as opposed to FF loyalty) as they grow up.
All in all, it is great for the consumer!
As a former UA 1K, I see UA as suffering the most given they are the weakest link for those traveling Y class in the NYC - SFO market..
UA has the smallest presence in the NYC market. Unlike AA, DL and B6 which all have hubs at JFK, UA has dismantled their former JFK mini hub in favor of IAD. UA has a poor Y class product (depsite the PS branding) and typically has higher NYC-SFO fares vs AA.
UA has essentially abidicated the NYC Y class market and I cannot recall the last time I saw a New York City specific UA ad (as opposed to a general national ad) in NYC (print, newspaper, billboard, TV or radio spot).
Meanwhile, DL is bulking up their JFK hub, AA adding is a flight and will soon fully occupy an new (if uninspired) JFK terminal and B6 recently entered the market with MRTC, DTV, a customer committment and newer planes than UA. Soon B6 will have a new JFK terminal as well.
For Y class pax, UA's vaunted PS service has been downgraded and IMO less comfortable or entertaining than B6's cabin.
UA might as well just convert their 757s to all F and C configuration given their neglect of the Y product in this market, or use 737s configured in F and C class only.
UA has the smallest presence in the NYC market. Unlike AA, DL and B6 which all have hubs at JFK, UA has dismantled their former JFK mini hub in favor of IAD. UA has a poor Y class product (depsite the PS branding) and typically has higher NYC-SFO fares vs AA.
UA has essentially abidicated the NYC Y class market and I cannot recall the last time I saw a New York City specific UA ad (as opposed to a general national ad) in NYC (print, newspaper, billboard, TV or radio spot).
Meanwhile, DL is bulking up their JFK hub, AA adding is a flight and will soon fully occupy an new (if uninspired) JFK terminal and B6 recently entered the market with MRTC, DTV, a customer committment and newer planes than UA. Soon B6 will have a new JFK terminal as well.
For Y class pax, UA's vaunted PS service has been downgraded and IMO less comfortable or entertaining than B6's cabin.
UA might as well just convert their 757s to all F and C configuration given their neglect of the Y product in this market, or use 737s configured in F and C class only.
Jul 22, 2007, 10:46 am
#68
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NJ
Programs: UA LTG, AA LTG, Bonvoy LTP, IHG Plat, LHW Sterling
Posts: 2,405
Jul 24, 2007, 11:41 am
#69
Join Date: Jul 2004
Programs: DL; AA; UA; CO; LHLX; NZ; QR; EK; BA
Posts: 7,409
AA is matching VX's First Class fare
Looks like AA has decided to match VX's special one-way First Class $389+ tax fare between JFK and LAX/SFO. On 3-cabin flights it's the Business section on AA (762s to LAX) or the front cabin on 2-cabin flights (763 to SFO, for example). Fare bucket on AA is "I" ("Z" on VX); both fares are valid until 11/14 only and can be purchased one-way. The AA fare has a 14 day advance purchase requirement; the VX fare doesn't I believe.
Jul 25, 2007, 2:59 pm
#70
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: MSP (and will only fly NWA in re-routes if I HAVE to)
Programs: AA EXP (4.5MM), hotel programs as needed
Posts: 5,800
Thanks Ft!!!
Looks like AA has decided to match VX's special one-way First Class $389+ tax fare between JFK and LAX/SFO. On 3-cabin flights it's the Business section on AA (762s to LAX) or the front cabin on 2-cabin flights (763 to SFO, for example). Fare bucket on AA is "I" ("Z" on VX); both fares are valid until 11/14 only and can be purchased one-way. The AA fare has a 14 day advance purchase requirement; the VX fare doesn't I believe.
Called EXP Desk and they upgraded that leg to the I fare $399 for me (ok had to pay the $100 change fee) .. but now I will not be sweating about my upgrade clearing!
MRs in business are so much nicer! Thanks FT!!! ^^
Jul 25, 2007, 10:49 pm
#71
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NYC
Programs: AA-Million Miles++, Pan Am, Eastern, Asia Miles, True Blue, IHG Spire, Emirates, APEC & Global Entry
Posts: 116
OK Group, some Therapy
Hi folks--
I'm struggling with this one like you, obviously, are. Haven't seen much in favor of reality yet.
I like AA for historical reasons. And silver wings.
But...
I fly NYC to SFO or LA, plus occasionally to UK and points East. Struggle to make my plat, but do-able. When I figure total costs, comes to $2500 more than cheepies like VA.
I get upgrades on AA about every 4th leg, and pay for most of them--and always an anxious insecure hassle (CO used to be much better on prior notifications).
Seems expensive for my little Inc.-- for deteriorating service and cabins.
For the rest of this 07 year, reaching Plat will cost us $1750 extra-- to fly old AA aircraft, for infrequent upgrades and 'special treatment' (more often - quite "non-special' treatment). Oh yeah-- sticky seats, "DON'T USE THE LOO WITHOUT SHOES" and my own non-ac-two hour at JFK gate (we were blessed).
Many of our pals fly Jet Blue, and lately Zoom or Silverjet et al-- and do pretty well--and won't go back to legacies. Add Virgin America and the likelihood that they all have FF progs... And the domestic all-biz flights that will happen soon...
Even without FF's and rare earned flights (as opposed to retail purchases), the cheepies seem superior. And this is before they get Dreamliners, which AA seems not to need.
I am literally at a juncture. Why, Group, continue to push for next Plat? Or even Gold? Seems like bye bye AA. Painful--but they won't/can't or don't care. Please--tell us why to continue to play this game?
(AA Marketing--are you paying attention anymore? We did business with them 10 years ago, with Tom Morris. They were sharp as a tack then. Hope someone there is still on the button now.)
I've followed this industry for 25 years. I know it's complicated with legacies... but these guys get paid plenty to deal with 'complex.'
Best--
--Cyllabus
PS: flying since 1967. I'm Plat & United Premier--both, up in the air. Also in AA club, Priority Pass and IAPA.
(But I miss my Pan Am.)
I'm struggling with this one like you, obviously, are. Haven't seen much in favor of reality yet.
I like AA for historical reasons. And silver wings.
But...
I fly NYC to SFO or LA, plus occasionally to UK and points East. Struggle to make my plat, but do-able. When I figure total costs, comes to $2500 more than cheepies like VA.
I get upgrades on AA about every 4th leg, and pay for most of them--and always an anxious insecure hassle (CO used to be much better on prior notifications).
Seems expensive for my little Inc.-- for deteriorating service and cabins.
For the rest of this 07 year, reaching Plat will cost us $1750 extra-- to fly old AA aircraft, for infrequent upgrades and 'special treatment' (more often - quite "non-special' treatment). Oh yeah-- sticky seats, "DON'T USE THE LOO WITHOUT SHOES" and my own non-ac-two hour at JFK gate (we were blessed).
Many of our pals fly Jet Blue, and lately Zoom or Silverjet et al-- and do pretty well--and won't go back to legacies. Add Virgin America and the likelihood that they all have FF progs... And the domestic all-biz flights that will happen soon...
Even without FF's and rare earned flights (as opposed to retail purchases), the cheepies seem superior. And this is before they get Dreamliners, which AA seems not to need.
I am literally at a juncture. Why, Group, continue to push for next Plat? Or even Gold? Seems like bye bye AA. Painful--but they won't/can't or don't care. Please--tell us why to continue to play this game?
(AA Marketing--are you paying attention anymore? We did business with them 10 years ago, with Tom Morris. They were sharp as a tack then. Hope someone there is still on the button now.)
I've followed this industry for 25 years. I know it's complicated with legacies... but these guys get paid plenty to deal with 'complex.'
Best--
--Cyllabus
PS: flying since 1967. I'm Plat & United Premier--both, up in the air. Also in AA club, Priority Pass and IAPA.
(But I miss my Pan Am.)
Last edited by Cyllabus; Jul 26, 2007 at 2:58 pm Reason: better wording
Jul 26, 2007, 1:44 am
#72
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849
If you don't have some grand plan for using AA miles, it may be that other carriers meet your needs better. If they offer a better product for your day to day flying, maybe it is best to jump. Have you looked at the Virgin America site? They're certainly going to give AA and UA some serious competition SFO-JFK.
I left UA behind after 839,000 flight miles with them. I'm sure many others have left AA and been happy with other carriers.
Aug 16, 2007, 9:23 pm
#73
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,239
Looks like AA has decided to match VX's special one-way First Class $389+ tax fare between JFK and LAX/SFO. On 3-cabin flights it's the Business section on AA (762s to LAX) or the front cabin on 2-cabin flights (763 to SFO, for example). Fare bucket on AA is "I" ("Z" on VX); both fares are valid until 11/14 only and can be purchased one-way. The AA fare has a 14 day advance purchase requirement; the VX fare doesn't I believe.
Clearly, these fares are not -UP type fares. The fare basis begins with "I" and doesn't have an "UP" in it (e.g., I14YN for JFK-LAX). In the search by fare & schedule on AA.com, it's under the "Business Special" column, not the "Instant Upgrade" column (which perversely is twice the price). So I think we can agree it is a "Business Class" fare.
Now, here's the kicker. The fare rules include the language:
///---///---///---///---///---///---///---///---// 1.PASSENGERS HOLDING CONFIRMED RESERVATIONS AND TICKETS MAY STANDBY FOR EARLIER/LATER SAME DAY AA NONSTOP AND/OR CONNECTING FLIGHTS BETWEEN THE SAME ORIGIN AND DESTINATION AIRPORTS WITHOUT CHARGE PROVIDED THE ROUTING IS APPLICABLE FOR THE FARE CHARGED. IF BUSINESS CLASS IS NOT AVAILABLE/ THE PSGR WILL BE ACCOMMODATED IN THE COACH CABIN SUBJECT TO ITS AVAILABILITY OR PSGR MAY ELECT TO STANDBY FOR BUSINESS CLASS ON ANOTHER FLIGHT.
This is the language that lots of people here have used over the years to "defend" the position if you're on an -UP fare (which all have this language), AA can downgrade you without compensation. Never mind that this language only refers to voluntary standby, not irregular operations.
So I guess the real question is -- what are the passenger's rights in the event of an involuntary downgrade when on an -UP fare and when on one of these "I" fares? I posit that both are covered by the Conditions of Carriage, which affords the passenger an "appropriate" refund. Purposefully vague, and up to the passenger to fight with AA for the correct amount. Which I believe should be the difference between the fare paid and the lowest available coach fare at the time of purchase.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
Aug 22, 2007, 10:40 am
#74
Join Date: May 2000
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posts: 1,960
Well, the Virgin Battle has begun....... I got a personalized mailer in the post today offering me TRIPLE WN CREDITS on all originating/terminating SFO, OAK, SJC flights for the period 8/26-11/15 today. "Only the member who received this mailing is eligible", so my wife doesn't get the goods.
That pretty much means I'll be switching to OAK-BUR as my SFO-LAX city pair for a while, and on WN, drat it. A freebie for every third R/T is too good to pass up, even if it's on WN. AA, UA and Virgin aren't offering anything close, especially as the advance purchase fares are about $118 a/i now.
AA, where's your counter-offer? I've got about three r/ts waiting to be booked right now......
That pretty much means I'll be switching to OAK-BUR as my SFO-LAX city pair for a while, and on WN, drat it. A freebie for every third R/T is too good to pass up, even if it's on WN. AA, UA and Virgin aren't offering anything close, especially as the advance purchase fares are about $118 a/i now.
AA, where's your counter-offer? I've got about three r/ts waiting to be booked right now......
Aug 22, 2007, 11:52 am
#75
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Concord, CA
Programs: AA PLT, MileagePlus
Posts: 2,617
I was reading the Virgin F class review http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724726 and I gotta say i am pretty impressed. Don't know if I'm impressed enough to switch from AA, but it does come pretty darn close...
Benefits of AA:
1. Mileage accrual in a huge variety of ways.
2. Upgradeability with stickers even on the real cheap fares.
3. Mileage spending in a huge variety of ways.
4. AAVacations is quite nice.
5. AA.com is amazingly user friendly minus the late mileage posting.
6. I happen to like stopovers in DFW
Benefits of VX:
1. Very attractive pricing.
2. Nicely appointed cabins
3. Entertainment options
4. Food seems actually better than AA
5. Ability to redeam award tixs in any flight at any time provided there is seating.
6. Current routes don't quite fit my travel patterns.
So, I am kinda torn... either carrier's benefits to me are the other's shortcomings. I will probbably give VX a try, get me a nice F seat and see what the hype is all about. But I've been a loyal AA customer since 02 and I have to say they have been extremely nice to me, even when I didn't have status, so there's something to be said there about loyalty.
I am a firm believer that if you find a brand you like, stay with it. Rewards will come, be it in a form of a "Good day sir. First off I want to thank you for being a loyal customer since year xxxx" to nice freebies and flight change flexibility. Case in point, I've been an extremely loyal Tmobile customer since 02 and over the years not only have they justified my faith in them but many nice little things have been offered to me just on the account of loyalty.
So... yea... i'll try VX out but I am doubtful I will switch.
Benefits of AA:
1. Mileage accrual in a huge variety of ways.
2. Upgradeability with stickers even on the real cheap fares.
3. Mileage spending in a huge variety of ways.
4. AAVacations is quite nice.
5. AA.com is amazingly user friendly minus the late mileage posting.
6. I happen to like stopovers in DFW
Benefits of VX:
1. Very attractive pricing.
2. Nicely appointed cabins
3. Entertainment options
4. Food seems actually better than AA
5. Ability to redeam award tixs in any flight at any time provided there is seating.
6. Current routes don't quite fit my travel patterns.
So, I am kinda torn... either carrier's benefits to me are the other's shortcomings. I will probbably give VX a try, get me a nice F seat and see what the hype is all about. But I've been a loyal AA customer since 02 and I have to say they have been extremely nice to me, even when I didn't have status, so there's something to be said there about loyalty.
I am a firm believer that if you find a brand you like, stay with it. Rewards will come, be it in a form of a "Good day sir. First off I want to thank you for being a loyal customer since year xxxx" to nice freebies and flight change flexibility. Case in point, I've been an extremely loyal Tmobile customer since 02 and over the years not only have they justified my faith in them but many nice little things have been offered to me just on the account of loyalty.
So... yea... i'll try VX out but I am doubtful I will switch.