nrr

In an old LA LAW epsiode (does anyone remember that tv series ), one of the lawyers was trapped on a plane for several hours. Using a cell-phone he was able to get one of his colleagues to go before a (federal) judge and get a court order to have the plane return to a gate and allow the passengers to deplane. Could something like this have worked for the pax on the aa 10 hour tarmac flight?

PresRDC

Contingent fee arrangements mean that a prospective plaintiff is not going to be paying out of pocket for legal representation.

As for time, it could be long, but it would be no different if there was a specific law on the books a la the passenger "Bill of Rights." Fault would still need to be established and the airline would still have rights of appeal if it so chose. If such a law allowed for a private right of action, plaintiffs would still need legal representation. If the law didn't, any money collected would flow to the government, not the affected parties.

People recover for tort damages all the time.

Your proposed law would only provide modest preventative benefits and at great potential cost to others because you have limited the airline's ability to respond.

Again, we are talking about an isolated incident. You have thus far failed to establish that the AUS event is a widespread industry practice.

The bottom line is that passengers already have legal recourses. Additional laws would add little to these resources and come with the added unintended consequences myself and others have been outlining.

nickvora

You seem to be defending AA's actions rather strongly - or at least oppossing a Passenger Bill of Rights. While I admire your conviction regarding lack of government regulations and I agree with you in principle (minimize government interference) AND I agree with you that passengers have the opportunity to do something AFTER THE FACT (when they are wronged) - most LAWS are enacted to function as deterrence to ensure that the person is not WRONGED in the first place...

For instance, First Degree Murder laws affect a small minority of "victims" in the US - the risk of suffering from FIRST DEGREE MURDER is genuinely small, and there is remedy - the survivors/estate can sue (in civil court) the murderer (think O.J.)... However, the law does protect the, albeit small number, victims from it occuring in the first place. Now, I admit, the analogy I've used is hyperbole and overly dramatic - but it's just to get your attention.

Normally, i'd agree with you 100% - stay away from regs - but if you're stuck on a place like this with an infant / diabetes etc. - what protects you. And doesn't honestly have to be 8 hours - even 4 hours... while I admire AA for putting out a "rule" - what's their consequence for violating their own "rule" - sure passengers can sue - but so what - it's after the fact, what about during the incident.

Air travel is so much more important in the US (given the size of the country) than in many other places in the WORLD - that it is a critical piece of transport and operators of this "public utility - airspace" should be required to adhere to a minimum set of standards.

Steenj

They already had a plan and it didn't mean a thing !!! .... So they are going from 2 to 4 hours ...

Essential Customer Needs During Extraordinary Delays

Our top priority is the safety and well-being of our customers, and we are focused on having all our flights arrive and deplane on schedule. On very rare occasions, there may be extraordinary events that result in very lengthy onboard delays. These are situations in which an aircraft is delayed on the ground (other than on an active runway or taxiway) but does not have access to a terminal gate for more than two hours. We have developed detailed contingency plans at every domestic airport to address these situations. In such events, we will make every reasonable effort to ensure your essential needs, such as food (snack bar, such as a Nutri-Grain), water, restroom facilities, and basic medical assistance, are met. Every American Airlines and American Eagle U.S. airport team has an operational contingency plan in place to address these needs, which includes coordination with the local airport authorities and other airlines serving the airport when appropriate. Each plan designates a local control point to coordinate activities of the local team and establishes an open communication line with our centralized System Operations Control center located at our headquarters.

Doppy

The problem with laws on these matters is that they don't tend to take into account the shades of gray or specifics of individual situations that might occur. Five minutes over the legal limit might get everyone home that night, whereas turning back to the gate means 200 people sleeping on the airport floor, who will then have to wait all the next day on standby.

Note that air travel only became so important after deregulation lowered prices to the point where people and even smaller businesses could afford the cost of regular/frequent travel.

hillrider

Air travel is one of the most regulated business around: there are strict rules on everything from maintenance to duty hours to retirement age to redundant system to weather minimums to quantity of fuel to minimum number of flight attendants to mechanics testing and certification to on-time arrival reporting and on and on an on.

However, while an airline is fined if they work a crew 1 minute over maximum, or fly without certain back-up systems, they can give out gates to other flights at the expense of the 200 people trapped without adequate food, toilets and fluids for 8 hours with complete impunity.

What the Passenger Bill of Rights do is to codify basic rights to us passenger just like employee and even machinery have--and make airlines accountable. It has nothing to do with the price and schedule regulation of the past you're hinting at.

hillrider

Yes, that's exactly the way it works today: when a crewmember is beyond its duty time (1 minute is enough), the flight gets canceled unless a new crew is found. And when the airframe is 1 minute over its mandatory maintenance check, it too will cause a flight to be canceled unless a different aircraft is available. There's nothing extraordinary about this; it happens hundreds of times every day all around the world.

It's a tried-and-true method to reduce instances of bad decision making (especially the creeping over time kind), of which the incident in AUS is a textbook example.

brp

I'll throw my Ph.D. Geophysicist wife at both y'all if this keeps up

Cheers.

bernardd

I think a nice discussion on the formation of the American landscape and the role that violent thunderstorms play in this would make quite an entertaining difference for the interminable questions about "why didn't my upgrade clear", broken MR's etc etc - I've only been here a month and I'm already seeing the pattern.

dayone

Other "pattern[s]" also are becoming evident.

Doppy

But you're proposing to make cancellations more common. I don't recall your position, but some here want to go down as low as 2 hours or less. I've been on too many flights that would have been cancelled "thanks" to a two hour law which would have really ruined my day (or destroyed a weekend trip).

As for price, the proposed "bill of rights" linked to above proposes that airlines should have to compensate passengers for anything and everything. Doling out compensation and cancelling flights for weather delays would cost airlines a fortune. Those of us who are not on expense accounts will get hit with higher airfares to pay all of that compensation for something that airlines have no control over. Next they'll want resorts in Hawaii to refund people for cloudy weather.

jukebox

I have found this discussion to be very interesting. American has failed adequately respond to passengers and has shifted the blame for delays to FAA. I feel they are directly responsible and by holding passengers "hostage" they are creating an environment where people can become ill from lack of food and children moreso have child welfare rights violated. I have decided to take this hold matter up with the ACLU to see how they view violation of personal rights. In addition, I am contacting several law schools to see if they have interest in pursueing this issue. Perhaps a class action suit is the best course. I am not satisfied with someone else deciding that I can sit on hold for 4 hrs on a flight. This decision is in the airlines financial best interest, not the passenger. I purchase tickets to fly not to sit. If I need to sit I want the choice to leave or to stay. No one else has this right to detain me. It has been a long time since something has angered me to this extent. When I get angry, I am relentless. I'll keep everyone posted as individual experiences will be needed.

dayone

What you propose is anarchy. The captain decides how a delay is handled, not you. If you don't like it, rent a car.

hillrider

What you're proposing is called dictatorship. Even the President of the United States has his/her powers checked and balanced, which is what dayone implies. I certainly don't want Captains as dictators on EVERYTHING!

hillrider

Is it fair that my contribution to the Red Cross went to pay for assistance to the stranded passengers in AUS? This is what happened under the current system--elderly and sick (along with everybody else) were abandoned by AA and the Red Cross stepped in to provide food, shelter and medication.

I don't think that charities should be effectively subsidizing airlines so that they can lower fares even more.

Airlines don't have control on weather but there was nothing weather-related about the 8 hour imprisonment. It took the Captain's willingness to violate company orders (he pulled into an open gate against AA's directive not to do so), something he could have done 8 hours earlier if AA management had not banned him from doing so.