ARCHIVE: Routes (Flights) and Hubs (Speculation, News and Discussion)
Jul 6, 2014, 4:00 pm
#1726
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 7,905
Thanks FWAAA for so much detail. I assumed it was because of O&D as stated in my original question, but I've been confused by others claiming the LHR is just not profitable. That has to be wrong. Thanks again.
Jul 6, 2014, 5:25 pm
#1727
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, Texas
Programs: Airline nobody. Sad!
Posts: 26,062
Between AA and BA, the joint venture flies about 60 daily flights between the US and London, far more than any other alliance. If there weren't profits involved, then I gotta believe that they wouldn't fly so many 747s and 777s to LHR.
London is one of the world's top markets for paid premium fares. No city in Germany (or Madrid) comes close. I'm certain that the Open Skies treaty has put pressure on prices and profits to LHR (now that everybody can fly to LHR), but the high UK taxes are generally paid by the passengers - not the airlines.
It's common to read Flyertalk blather about how Heathrow is hell on earth and the worst possible place to connect, but the reality is that millions of people do it every year.
London is one of the world's top markets for paid premium fares. No city in Germany (or Madrid) comes close. I'm certain that the Open Skies treaty has put pressure on prices and profits to LHR (now that everybody can fly to LHR), but the high UK taxes are generally paid by the passengers - not the airlines.
It's common to read Flyertalk blather about how Heathrow is hell on earth and the worst possible place to connect, but the reality is that millions of people do it every year.
The slots at LHR clearly have value, if you're losing money on them, and can't effort to use them better, then most airlines are better off selling the slots and pocketing the cash. AA just paid USD 31 million to Cyprus Airways for one slot (takeoff and landing). If they were losing money at all on LHR operations, they certainly would not be buying slots at LHR.
Heathrow does remain hell on earth and is an awful place to connect though
.
Jul 6, 2014, 8:34 pm
#1728
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP/1MM. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 22,307
Exactly who was saying that LHR is not profitable? Because the actions of AA (as well as basically every other carrier) prove otherwise in regards to the place. Sure, it's an expenisve airport to operate from. But the return on investment is quite good. Just like JFK.
Jul 8, 2014, 7:27 pm
#1730
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2001
Programs: DL 1 million, AA 1 mil, HH lapsed Diamond, Marriott Plat
Posts: 28,190
The Feds maintain a list. I won't promise it is up-to-the-minute.
http://www.tsa.gov/tsa-precheck/airlines-airports
http://www.tsa.gov/tsa-precheck/airlines-airports
Jul 9, 2014, 8:10 am
#1731
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: EWR, PHL
Programs: UA1k 3MM, AA Plt, peasant on everybody else, elite something or other at a bunch of hotels.
Posts: 4,637
Jul 9, 2014, 8:22 am
#1732
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: PHL
Programs: AA EXP / HH Diamond
Posts: 592
There is precheck at the Terminal A-East checkin, which American uses. For whatever reason, AA itself does not indicate that PRE is available.
Jul 10, 2014, 3:27 pm
#1733
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: Marriott LTG, HHonors Diamond, Nat'l Exec
Posts: 3,581
Jul 11, 2014, 2:27 pm
#1734
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: PHL / NYC / PSA-BLQ
Programs: AA PPRO, Marriott/Hilton Gold, AMX-Plat, Global Entry
Posts: 3,113
Only thing to be careful about with PHL Terminal A Pre is that they close the line often when traffic is light. It doesn't impact speed of getting through but the process has a little more hassle (take things out...).
They are supposed to give you a card or ID you when you are PreCheck but last time they didn't for me. I didn't debate it as PHL has some of the surliest TSA agents in the system. After I got through, I did go to the TSA supervisor and ask him if, in fact, they weren't suppose to ID PreCheck qualified so you can go through the metal detector and not take of jacket... He confirmed that was the protocol, asked me who I talked with and then he said he would correct.
They are supposed to give you a card or ID you when you are PreCheck but last time they didn't for me. I didn't debate it as PHL has some of the surliest TSA agents in the system. After I got through, I did go to the TSA supervisor and ask him if, in fact, they weren't suppose to ID PreCheck qualified so you can go through the metal detector and not take of jacket... He confirmed that was the protocol, asked me who I talked with and then he said he would correct.
Jul 14, 2014, 5:20 pm
#1735
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PIT/YYZ
Programs: US Silver, OW Ruby
Posts: 256
Wow--I just finished reading the entire thread. I feel bad for all those dead horses laying around in Charlotte. This thread must have beaten them all the way from Little Rock to Tokyo and back, by now. (HP must be making a lot of money off those dead horses, I wonder if they're CP yet).
Anyways....
There are a few things in this thread that have been brought up, but are still quite interesting. The first two have been mentioned before, but bear with me, I'm bringing up new points.
1. Operations to TLV. If the settlement with the former TWA employees was cheeper than a slot pair at LHR, why hasn't AA restarted service? JFK/MIA seem like perfect places to start a TLV route (JFK given the high O/D, and MIA given the large Jewish population in Latin America).
2. EWR-PHL. This seems like a no-brainer flight to axe. Flights to LGA and JFK make sense, given the hub-ish and hub nature of the airports, and connecting traffic. However, EWR has no significant US/AA following, and the EWR-PHL flight always seems like the first flight to cancel. I remember the last time I was there, the GA laughed at me for even coming to the airport (I was on the last flight of the night, and it had apparently been canceled 7 out of 10 days prior). Even looking at flightstats now, its been canceled 4 out of the past 10 days.
3. Former US/AA hubs. Wikipedia shows that RIC, ROC, and PIT-BOS are all supposed to end on Oct 31st (though a quick Kayak search shows that this is only true for RIC-BOS). While the end of RIC-BOS is hardly writing on the wall, will this merger be the downfall of all non hub-non hub routes, or will we see more service? (or no movement at all?)
Personally, I would like to see more service, but absent any revenue guarantee (a la RDU-LHR), or at-risk flying by subsidiaries (a la PIT-BDL/RDU/STL), I doubt anything will happen.
Anyways....
There are a few things in this thread that have been brought up, but are still quite interesting. The first two have been mentioned before, but bear with me, I'm bringing up new points.
1. Operations to TLV. If the settlement with the former TWA employees was cheeper than a slot pair at LHR, why hasn't AA restarted service? JFK/MIA seem like perfect places to start a TLV route (JFK given the high O/D, and MIA given the large Jewish population in Latin America).
2. EWR-PHL. This seems like a no-brainer flight to axe. Flights to LGA and JFK make sense, given the hub-ish and hub nature of the airports, and connecting traffic. However, EWR has no significant US/AA following, and the EWR-PHL flight always seems like the first flight to cancel. I remember the last time I was there, the GA laughed at me for even coming to the airport (I was on the last flight of the night, and it had apparently been canceled 7 out of 10 days prior). Even looking at flightstats now, its been canceled 4 out of the past 10 days.
3. Former US/AA hubs. Wikipedia shows that RIC, ROC, and PIT-BOS are all supposed to end on Oct 31st (though a quick Kayak search shows that this is only true for RIC-BOS). While the end of RIC-BOS is hardly writing on the wall, will this merger be the downfall of all non hub-non hub routes, or will we see more service? (or no movement at all?)
Personally, I would like to see more service, but absent any revenue guarantee (a la RDU-LHR), or at-risk flying by subsidiaries (a la PIT-BDL/RDU/STL), I doubt anything will happen.
Last edited by usAir; Jul 15, 2014 at 12:39 am
Jul 14, 2014, 9:02 pm
#1736
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: Marriott LTG, HHonors Diamond, Nat'l Exec
Posts: 3,581
3. Former US/AA hubs. Wikipedia shows that RIC, ROC, and PIT-BOS are all supposed to end on Oct 31st (though a quick Kayak search shows that this is only true for RIC-BOS). While the end of RIC-BOS is hardly writing on the wall, will this merger be the downfall of all non hub-hub routes, or will we see more service? (or no movement at all?)
Jul 14, 2014, 9:50 pm
#1737
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
If you take out the non-hub-hub flights, the resulting airline would be smaller than US since any flight leaving a hub that doesn't land at another hub would be gone. I wouldn't be surprised if AA/US didn't look much like pre-merger US - 98-99% of all flights touch a hub.
Jim
Jim
Jul 14, 2014, 10:09 pm
#1738
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Usually in SAN or Central Europe.
Programs: AA:EXP/1MM. Accor/Radisson:Silver; HH:Gold; ICH:Plt Amb.
Posts: 22,307
If you take out the non-hub-hub flights, the resulting airline would be smaller than US since any flight leaving a hub that doesn't land at another hub would be gone. I wouldn't be surprised if AA/US didn't look much like pre-merger US - 98-99% of all flights touch a hub.
Jim
Jim
Last edited by Fanjet; Jul 14, 2014 at 10:21 pm
Jul 15, 2014, 12:41 am
#1739
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PIT/YYZ
Programs: US Silver, OW Ruby
Posts: 256
If you take out the non-hub-hub flights, the resulting airline would be smaller than US since any flight leaving a hub that doesn't land at another hub would be gone. I wouldn't be surprised if AA/US didn't look much like pre-merger US - 98-99% of all flights touch a hub.
Jim
Jim
Jul 15, 2014, 1:33 am
#1740
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
Given the amount of combined flights for the two carriers, that is still over 100 daily flights. Moreover, we are not talking about an airline with 3 or 4 hub cities, but one with around 10: LAX/PHX/DFW/ORD/CLT/MIA/DCA/PHL/JFK. And I would probably include LGA as a hub since AA/US will have more daily flights there than JFK ever will.
Jim