View Poll Results: My opinion of the announced AA - US merger is:
This is the best of all possible worlds; great idea!
33
3.93%
This portends a stronger airline, with some changes for all
192
22.88%
I am neutral - pros and cons for all
199
23.72%
I think this is a somewhat bad idea with some real challenges
226
26.94%
I am completely opposed to this merger; terrible idea!
189
22.53%
Voters: 839. You may not vote on this poll
AA - US Merger Agreement / Announcement / DOJ Action Discussion (consolidated)
Feb 14, 2013, 6:57 pm
#616
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
US has loads of Airbuses that AA wants to save the fuel cost to replace the Mad Dogs with. Getting that many A321s and A319s actually help retire the MD80s much sooner before the new AA get orders from Airbus. This should help their financial situation immediately.
AA's MD-80s will likely be retired over the next four to five years as new planes arrive, without the need to shut down significant portions of the PMUS network.
Feb 14, 2013, 7:34 pm
#617
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA1MM*GL/1K, AA, BnVy PlatL, HH Silver,
Posts: 681
Speaking of merger plane issues, think the 777 A330 wide bodies could make an interesting scenario ( similar to dc10 L1011s in the 1980s mergers)
Looking at fleets DL has 18 777s / 33NW A330s. AA has 50 777s with more on order and US has 16 A330s with 8 on order.
Although the DL CEO said he likes the big mixed fleet, this seems like a place they could both try to essentially swap for a fleet commonality play (not sure about engines and stuff)
I know UA sold their 6 pan am L1011s to DL and got some # of Western DC-10s in return. Granted the numbers involve more, but any bets if a similar fleet swap could happen to at least get one area of wide body commonality?
Looking at fleets DL has 18 777s / 33NW A330s. AA has 50 777s with more on order and US has 16 A330s with 8 on order.
Although the DL CEO said he likes the big mixed fleet, this seems like a place they could both try to essentially swap for a fleet commonality play (not sure about engines and stuff)
I know UA sold their 6 pan am L1011s to DL and got some # of Western DC-10s in return. Granted the numbers involve more, but any bets if a similar fleet swap could happen to at least get one area of wide body commonality?
Feb 14, 2013, 7:43 pm
#618
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago
Programs: UA1MM*GL/1K, AA, BnVy PlatL, HH Silver,
Posts: 681
I remember the days of physical coupons (UA) and stickers (AA) ... then 500 mile eCerts (UA). Upgrades *COST* something... whether something you earned or cashed miles in for or purchased.
I didn't upgrade on every flight, nor did I expect it. I cashed in miles for long transcons and didn't bother with little 1 hour jumps.
I **HATE** complimentary unlimited upgrades, and I'm an EXP here and ex1K on UA. It spoils the entire premium experience - no cost = no value, and I'm sure the airline isn't keen on investing in a product that brings in minimal revenue. Not to mention virtually guarantees that a Gold or Silver member rarely if ever gets upgraded.
I really hope that the "new" American charts a DIFFERENT COURSE from the other bozos - and goes back to what worked. Maybe EXPs also have to use "stickers" but get a stash at the start of the year. Maybe miles or $ for upgrades are scaled based on status.
Make upgraded travel a more ... upgraded ... experience and we'll pay for it.
Just a thought / wish.
I didn't upgrade on every flight, nor did I expect it. I cashed in miles for long transcons and didn't bother with little 1 hour jumps.
I **HATE** complimentary unlimited upgrades, and I'm an EXP here and ex1K on UA. It spoils the entire premium experience - no cost = no value, and I'm sure the airline isn't keen on investing in a product that brings in minimal revenue. Not to mention virtually guarantees that a Gold or Silver member rarely if ever gets upgraded.
I really hope that the "new" American charts a DIFFERENT COURSE from the other bozos - and goes back to what worked. Maybe EXPs also have to use "stickers" but get a stash at the start of the year. Maybe miles or $ for upgrades are scaled based on status.
Make upgraded travel a more ... upgraded ... experience and we'll pay for it.
Just a thought / wish.
Feb 14, 2013, 7:51 pm
#619
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
If your coporate strategy implicitly says "we can't serve a metropolitan market of 4 million people with a strong challenge from WN, they'll beat us", you're basically implying you don't have a prayer of expanding. WN isn't going to disappear at LAX or CHI anytime soon, is rapidly expanding their NYC/DCA presence, and, oh, BTW, DAL loses the Wright Amendment restrictions in 2014. Is AA going to start running in fear once WN starts flying DAL-LGA, DAL-DCA, DAL-LAX, DAL-MDW and DAL-FLL? Or are they going to fight back like US has in PHX or PHL?
I think the AA-AS relationship is a valuable one, with special benefits to both because of its Northwestern coverage, and because of the somewhat unique reciprocity in EQM / EQP earning and other benefits to each program's elites.
IMO the "new American" would be wise to retain this relationship - the route map you show demonstrates in part why, IMO.
IMO the "new American" would be wise to retain this relationship - the route map you show demonstrates in part why, IMO.
REALLY? Consider non-AA, current US cities like AMS, VCE. From my base in SAN, I would have to go through LHR on BA, which would mean 3 flights (via LAX or JFK), and/or BA's excessive taxes in fees (SAN-LHR on BA). On US, it would be 2 flights, thorugh PHL.
Most importantly, it creates additional OPTIONS.
Most importantly, it creates additional OPTIONS.
No. I think DL is at cap. Further, I think VX will continue to expand, and slot concessions made by UScAAre will be to VX (to spite WN).
From what most of us understand, B6 chose not to do it w/ AA. However, UScAAre does not preclude the end of the B6/AA arrangement (yet). It will be interesting to see how WN responds.
Feb 14, 2013, 7:54 pm
#620
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: AA EXP,2MM, DL Gold,Starwood PLT
Posts: 3,876
I'm pretty sure that AA's industry-leading costs posed a significant problem when attempting to go head to head against jetBlue.
Ignoring the practical limitations on which routes can be flown by which pilots for the time being (mentioned by tom911), if the new airline used the US mainline fleet to retire the MD-80s faster than planned, with which planes would the US part of the new airline use to bring in its 1/3 share of the combined airline's revenue? Those US planes are in revenue service right now - it's not as though US has 350 mainline planes just sitting around.
AA's MD-80s will likely be retired over the next four to five years as new planes arrive, without the need to shut down significant portions of the PMUS network.
Ignoring the practical limitations on which routes can be flown by which pilots for the time being (mentioned by tom911), if the new airline used the US mainline fleet to retire the MD-80s faster than planned, with which planes would the US part of the new airline use to bring in its 1/3 share of the combined airline's revenue? Those US planes are in revenue service right now - it's not as though US has 350 mainline planes just sitting around.
AA's MD-80s will likely be retired over the next four to five years as new planes arrive, without the need to shut down significant portions of the PMUS network.
Feb 14, 2013, 7:55 pm
#621
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7
Don't know what you've experienced with BA, but after quite a few flights on both BA and LH, I've found them to be quite comparable. However, I do agree that *A currently has better coverage around the globe with their partners.
I've read that AA will become the largest airline by a wide margin in the U.S. domestic market, with *A of course losing the current US network. Given the value to a foreign carrier of strong connections to this market, wouldn't that make OW much more attractive than it's been to would-be partners? My guess is that we'll be seeing some significant global realignment in the alliances over the next several years in OW's favor.
I've read that AA will become the largest airline by a wide margin in the U.S. domestic market, with *A of course losing the current US network. Given the value to a foreign carrier of strong connections to this market, wouldn't that make OW much more attractive than it's been to would-be partners? My guess is that we'll be seeing some significant global realignment in the alliances over the next several years in OW's favor.
In contrast the last time I flew Lufthansa was last year and it was in first class cabin, don't know if you've been to Lufthansa's first class passenger lounge in Frankfurt but it is the best I have experienced. Actually had a dining area with white tablecloths, a very nice buffet plus some carved meats, wines, and some other dishes made to order all complimentary, private stalls in the men's room and other amenities, very classy. We were escorted to our plane via private elevator to a shuttle over the tarmack directly to the gangplank. Judging airlines is subjective and depends on where you fly and other conditions. On that trip I flew LH domestically to Dulles, and from Rome to Frankfurt and from Frankfurt to Boston. Service was excellent and food was good as airline food goes. Lufthansa was voted best airline in Europe not that I put much stock in surveys or ratings until I have experienced it or heard from trusted associates. BA could have improved at lot in recent years but I am doubtful.
If we see realignment and some growth in OW and it turns out to be more robust I would use them I am not married to Star A it just looks better to me at this time and I discount future changes until I see them. The one airline that OW has that I would like to try is Qatar, I have never flown them but some trusted friends travel to Asia 2 - 3 times a year and they like Qatar through Dubai. From what I have heard they may rival Singapore Air for service and may have first class or other passenger lounges that are as good or better then LH
Feb 14, 2013, 8:00 pm
#622
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Programs: AA EXP 3MM, FB Plat, AS Gold, Marriott Gold, Fairmont Plat, BA wannabe
Posts: 684
Just giving my most recent experiences between BA and Lufthansa. This subject seems to be mostly populated with AA members, I am not partial to US Airways vs. American. But the last time I flew with BA which admittedly was several years ago, the seats in the cabin were well worn, one person was sitting in a seat that had been patched with duct tape. The plane was not that clean and the terminal in Heathrow was a bit seedy (not really BAs fault). I had read that BA had the oldest fleet of the major carriers (at least at that time) and it looked like it to me. The other factor was that these observations were also experienced by some fellow air passengers.
In contrast the last time I flew Lufthansa was last year and it was in first class cabin, don't know if you've been to Lufthansa's first class passenger lounge in Frankfurt but it is the best I have experienced. Actually had a dining area with white tablecloths, a very nice buffet plus some carved meats, wines, and some other dishes made to order all complimentary, private stalls in the men's room and other amenities, very classy. We were escorted to our plane via private elevator to a shuttle over the tarmack directly to the gangplank. Judging airlines is subjective and depends on where you fly and other conditions. On that trip I flew LH domestically to Dulles, and from Rome to Frankfurt and from Frankfurt to Boston. Service was excellent and food was good as airline food goes. Lufthansa was voted best airline in Europe not that I put much stock in surveys or ratings until I have experienced it or heard from trusted associates. BA could have improved at lot in recent years but I am doubtful.
In contrast the last time I flew Lufthansa was last year and it was in first class cabin, don't know if you've been to Lufthansa's first class passenger lounge in Frankfurt but it is the best I have experienced. Actually had a dining area with white tablecloths, a very nice buffet plus some carved meats, wines, and some other dishes made to order all complimentary, private stalls in the men's room and other amenities, very classy. We were escorted to our plane via private elevator to a shuttle over the tarmack directly to the gangplank. Judging airlines is subjective and depends on where you fly and other conditions. On that trip I flew LH domestically to Dulles, and from Rome to Frankfurt and from Frankfurt to Boston. Service was excellent and food was good as airline food goes. Lufthansa was voted best airline in Europe not that I put much stock in surveys or ratings until I have experienced it or heard from trusted associates. BA could have improved at lot in recent years but I am doubtful.
I have no reason to lie to you - the BA "F" and Y experience have definitely improved. The Concorde and First lounges are equal or better to the LH lounge in most respects. The in-flight experience is quite similar.
Feb 14, 2013, 8:14 pm
#623
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: DCA | DEN
Programs: AA EXP/2.9mm | Marriott LT Titanium 1.6k nights | NEXUS
Posts: 981
I care a lot about SWUs mostly for TATL. If that's retained and there are reasonable opportunities for alternative departure points for tContinent I"m good to go. One annoying fact is a single FRA departure now - from DFW -vs- 3 (including ORD) a few years ago.
Feb 14, 2013, 8:15 pm
#624
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, Texas
Programs: Airline nobody. Sad!
Posts: 26,062
Nice job by AA and US on the "The New American is Arriving" picture/drawing. Except for one thing: there is only one plane in the entire picture. Way off to the left in the back, you can see:
A 747!!!
Which is a plane type which hasn't been operated by either airline in several decades. I can't even find that US or a predecessor have ever operated a 747. Whoops.
A 747!!!
Which is a plane type which hasn't been operated by either airline in several decades. I can't even find that US or a predecessor have ever operated a 747. Whoops
.
Feb 14, 2013, 8:31 pm
#625
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
HP flew a 747-200 PHX-NGO more than 20 years ago before its bankruptcy. Maybe that's the reference?
You're right - US East never flew anything larger than the A330.
You're right - US East never flew anything larger than the A330.
Feb 14, 2013, 8:34 pm
#626
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, Texas
Programs: Airline nobody. Sad!
Posts: 26,062
). I know the 747 is an iconic image of an aircraft, but it simply doesn't seem to apply here.
Feb 14, 2013, 8:40 pm
#627
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
I tink it's pretty inevitable that some portions of the US's network will be shutdown or reoriented to other hubs. The large increases in costs to bring them up to to AA's levels just wont be sustainable in portions of US's current network. Parker will be aggressive i'm sure in pulling things that wont make money in the new world. They will undoubtedly rationalize capacity and the network as they begin to integrate.
There may be some rationalization and trimming here and there, but I believe Parker when he says:
5. Will there be any job losses or involuntary furloughs for nonunion employees as a result of this combination?
•Unlike other transactions that are premised on excessive cost cuts, this merger is about the opportunities to grow revenues, which will also create more opportunities for employees as the combined airline flies more people to more places.
•Importantly, we’ve only just announced the agreement and no operational decisions have been made, nor can they be implemented, at this time.
•While we focus on completing the merger, and building a new airline from our two great companies, our integration teams will continue to carefully study the opportunities in a manner that enables us to create the best global competitor possible.
•Suffice it to say that we expect to build a team that is the “best of both” organizations.
8. Will this new airline hire more employees in the years to come?
•As we mentioned earlier, this combination is about the opportunities to grow revenues, which will also create more opportunities for employees.
•Importantly, we’ve only just announced the merger and no decisions have been made at this time.
•Unlike other transactions that are premised on excessive cost cuts, this merger is about the opportunities to grow revenues, which will also create more opportunities for employees as the combined airline flies more people to more places.
•Importantly, we’ve only just announced the agreement and no operational decisions have been made, nor can they be implemented, at this time.
•While we focus on completing the merger, and building a new airline from our two great companies, our integration teams will continue to carefully study the opportunities in a manner that enables us to create the best global competitor possible.
•Suffice it to say that we expect to build a team that is the “best of both” organizations.
8. Will this new airline hire more employees in the years to come?
•As we mentioned earlier, this combination is about the opportunities to grow revenues, which will also create more opportunities for employees.
•Importantly, we’ve only just announced the merger and no decisions have been made at this time.
The merger has been sold for months now as the only way for AA to grow so that it can compete with UA and DL, so I don't see many cuts unless your skeptical view ends up being correct (I actually agree that it's optimistic that the increased costs can be sustained).
Feb 14, 2013, 9:09 pm
#628
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ORD, SJD, VNO, sandy places
Programs: AA 1.2MM BIS 'LT' Gld, BA Bronze, AA Plat, now considering SWA.....
Posts: 451
I received this communication from USA this AM
US Airways and American Airlines combine to create premier global carrier
What did I get from AA NADA, nothing......So this is the 'New American'.......
US Airways and American Airlines combine to create premier global carrier
What did I get from AA NADA, nothing......So this is the 'New American'.......
Feb 14, 2013, 9:12 pm
#629
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: somewhere
Programs: their are many of them
Posts: 1,614
To take a quote from the archives of American Airlines
"Two great airlines, one great future"
Lmfao ....
"Two great airlines, one great future"
Lmfao ....
Feb 14, 2013, 9:12 pm
#630
In Memoriam, FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Benicia CA
Programs: Alaska MVP Gold 75K, AA 3.8MM, UA 1.1MM, enjoying the retired life
Posts: 31,849