brp

Just to be clear (and I think that this is what you're saying)- taking the Hawai'i flights on their own, even adding in the value of the used frequent flier miles, these flights were not profitable. But their impact on overall profitability was what kept them around.

Just want to confirm that the flights did not make money even including paid tickets, cargo and award redemption value.

Cheers.

PresRDC

And there are so many more interesting places in the world that are no more distant from the East Coast and Midwest than Hawaii where one could redeem their miles.

Halo117

Understanding the economics, Why does AA service Kona and Lihue? It would seem that consolidating "money losing routes" to HNL or OGG would seem a better way to service the islands.

Another interesting point is that CO is expanding service to Hawaii at the same time they joined Star Alliance which gives FFers access to UA and US flights the islands. Why?

IMO It would seem to me that the economics of servicing Hawaii has changed dramatically since the early 2000's and might be more in line with demand/profitability. But at the end of the day it doesn't excuse AA with offering the least amount of amenities of ANY carrier to the Hawaiian islands when compared by route and class of service.

brp

Of course it does. Assuming that the route is not profitable and just there to keep people flying the more profitable routes (and I'm going with formeraa and a bunch of other AA employees over random, uninformed speculation here), then there is absolutely no reason to offer more. Folks getting their redemption destination are far more sensitive to that than the lack of amenities. And "because we want it that way" is not a valid economic argument. They are offering what the folks are willing to pay. No incentive to offer more.

Cheers.

mvoight

For that matter, why would HA even operate flights between the mainland and Hawaii, if they weren't profitable? I doubt it is to appease the frequent flyers hopping between the islands. AS also is adding flights to Hawaii from SJC

freeupgrade

My understanding from an AA employee (this was years ago to be fair) was that AA makes a large profit on cargo to HNL, and takes a loss on pax side.

dayone

Count me among the random, uninformed speculators but I just don't buy that AA service to Hawaii is a money loser.

My opinion is informed by the high fares (and the associated complaints about them) on the DFW-HNL and DFW-OGG routes, a decent amount of paid F, the return of ORD-HNL and high loads to Hawaii supported by heavy group travel.

AA is not shy about discontinuing unprofitable routes and parking planes. If service to Hawaii was losing money and only offered for competitive reasons, AA would offer minimal service between DFW, and perhaps LAX, and HNL only.

miles_navigator

Just be glad the are overload public TV monitors work properly. My last AA123 DFW to HNL they didn't work. At least customer service gave us $100 AA currency per person (on an award ticket) ^.

I can see why the Hawaii route is not profitable; I have never paid for a ticket to the islands; always manged to use miles from some program or other. We are am coming up on our 5th trip in 6 years this year.

Bishope2

I think for the most part, cargo, is the reason why all airlines keep flying to Hawaii. There is money to be made flying in cargo. Think about it, there are only two ways to get cargo into Hawaii, air and sea. There is obviously no rail service to Hawaii and no true interstate highway system (H-1 on Oahu for some reason is called an interstate).

AA says Hawaiian routes are not profitable. Cargo/passenger or just on the passenger? It is all in the wording. They say there are alot of award redemptions on these flights thus not making them profitable (I will give the one non stop out of SFO that much). AA has 2,780 seats available on 14 daily flights to Hawaiian destinations out of DFW, LAX and SFO. (This is not counting the seasonal additions) So is AA telling everyone they make no money on these flights and only keep these flights around for award redemption? That is awful alot of awards. I think they break even.

In the first class cabin, you either pay for the first class ticket, pay for a coach ticket then use miles and have a $150 one way co-pay or use a crap load of miles for the somewhat "free" ticket (I don't know if there is a co-pay of some type for an award redemption) Anyone of the three ways, AA should offer a better service in first. With that said, other than a PVP and a second meal service (or "better snack") before arrival, there really isn't much room for improvement on the 767. The 757's could use some improvements overall.

I think one thing they should do on all flights with a meal service is to offer a choice of beef, poultry, fish or pasta. Not on the flight but preorder it when buying your ticket. That might be one way to keep passengers happy and maybe even save on catering. I remember one flight in particular, HNL to DFW. My wife and I were in row 3 (in order to take advantage of FEBO). Row's 2 and 3 ordered one particular meal and when they got to row 4 (along with row's 5 and 6) people were complaining loudly that they didn't want what was left, they wanted "X" meal. Ugly flight.

brp

Well, according to post #15, from a former AA analyst, it is not profitable even taking cargo into account. As these are the people who actually figure this stuff out, it certainly was true for many years. With costs rising, fares not so much, there would have to have been a substantial relative increase in cargo revenues to effect a profitability change. Something considerably more than simple fuel cost offsets, of course. It could be the case, but I see no reason to believe so.

Cheers.

msv777

I completely agree. A friend who works at AA mentioned to me once that the cost to fly in & out of Hawaii is quite expensive, mainly fuel & airport takeoff and landing fees.

Cheers.

kebosabi

Going a bit OT regarding award travel to HI, I guess it also depends on where one live plays a factor too.

Many living on the West Coast don't see Hawaii as a big award deal since there tends to be really good fare deals on many airlines out of West Coast cities to HNL. One week it could be HA, the next week it could be NW, the other could be AA. Even last minute deals out of the West Coast cities tend to be generous; a couple of years ago I didn't pay more than $400 RT on NW two days before the trip to HNL.

For many West Coast folk, award travel to the Caribbean islands like Puerto Rico or the US Virgin Islands might be a better use for award redemption.

David10225

I guess I'm a big sap then for paying 4 x $1057 for our very first trip to Hawaii in July (IAD - DFW - HNL) for the lousiest service in the air.

broadwayblue

Bring your own food and entertainment and you'll be fine. Once you get there you'll quickly forget about the flight. I just returned from the Big Island/Maui a month ago and I'm already looking forward to going back.

Regarding the topic at hand I do wonder how much they actually make per flight. It's true, we flew in J on award tickets, but there are 30 seats in that cabin and I'm pretty sure that no more than 6 or 8 are available for award ticket redemption. Similar for the 194 seats in the back.

How much does it cost AA to fly a 763 round trip DFW-HNL?

billgrates3

maybe so... but SFO-HNL is 200 miles shorter distance than is SFO-JFK, but the fares to Hawaii are always considerably higher than to NYC.