US DOT rule applicability
Apr 15, 2020, 6:35 pm
#76
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Of course NZ's position has been reviewed by its "legal team" and that "team" knows full well what it is doing.
First, no refunds for cancelled flights/
Second, refunds for flights to/from the US, but only for US citizens.
Third, some people get the refunds.
Why waste a second on NZ. Make your request, wait 7 days and then on the 8th file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) noting that you were ticketed to or from the US and that US law requires the refund for such tickets. Supply a copy of your e-ticket receipt, the cancellation notice, your refund request, the denial (or a note that no response has been received) and a copy of the Notice and the Warning Letter.
The easier and more self-contained, the better.
First, no refunds for cancelled flights/
Second, refunds for flights to/from the US, but only for US citizens.
Third, some people get the refunds.
Why waste a second on NZ. Make your request, wait 7 days and then on the 8th file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) noting that you were ticketed to or from the US and that US law requires the refund for such tickets. Supply a copy of your e-ticket receipt, the cancellation notice, your refund request, the denial (or a note that no response has been received) and a copy of the Notice and the Warning Letter.
The easier and more self-contained, the better.
Apr 15, 2020, 7:02 pm
#77
Join Date: May 2008
Location: MSP
Programs: DL Plat, NZ Elite, QF Plat
Posts: 1,776
Yes can see how this happens. NZ Legal Team have had time to decide on a proper policy (they initially took this approach then changed to give refunds when people pushed back re POS and US citizenship). You can see that they've probably decided that the risk to cash flow of paying refunds according to DoT is higher than the risk of not following DoT rules. Remember that only a tiny percentage of people flying to the US or through to LHR via LAX (originating in NZ and Australia) will be aware of DoT and most of those that are will take NZ at their word it doesn't apply and accept the credit. It's a very few number of people that will know the DoT rules aren't being followed and then make a DoT complaint and/or file a disputes tribunal claim here in NZ. And I'd imagine Air NZ would probably get a slap on the wrist from DoT and they'd say "oh sorry we misinterpreted, how about no fine and we process the refunds we should have".
Apr 15, 2020, 7:07 pm
#78
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: NZ
Programs: NZ Elite
Posts: 189
Of course NZ's position has been reviewed by its "legal team" and that "team" knows full well what it is doing.
First, no refunds for cancelled flights/
Second, refunds for flights to/from the US, but only for US citizens.
Third, some people get the refunds.
Why waste a second on NZ. Make your request, wait 7 days and then on the 8th file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) noting that you were ticketed to or from the US and that US law requires the refund for such tickets. Supply a copy of your e-ticket receipt, the cancellation notice, your refund request, the denial (or a note that no response has been received) and a copy of the Notice and the Warning Letter.
The easier and more self-contained, the better.
First, no refunds for cancelled flights/
Second, refunds for flights to/from the US, but only for US citizens.
Third, some people get the refunds.
Why waste a second on NZ. Make your request, wait 7 days and then on the 8th file a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) noting that you were ticketed to or from the US and that US law requires the refund for such tickets. Supply a copy of your e-ticket receipt, the cancellation notice, your refund request, the denial (or a note that no response has been received) and a copy of the Notice and the Warning Letter.
The easier and more self-contained, the better.
Apr 15, 2020, 10:21 pm
#79
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
Sorry but DOT won't write you back.
The online complaint platform is for DOT to resolve most complaints informally (and possibly identify the bigger issue). Because the majority of the airlines will compromise their positions, in most of the cases, the cases are resolved and DOT is put on notice about the resolution (as the required airline response). DOT generally won't act other than creating a bridge between parties to communicate as they are similar informal complaints.
But if NZ decides not to back down, then the impacted customer can file a petition for enforcement, i.e. the formal complaint. With this complaint, DOT is compelled to act and determine if NZ has violated the relevant law and/or regulations. It is an administrative process, which is relatively cheaper than litigation, but not much difference. Here are the procedures:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text...-302/subpart-D
How to file and pursue a consumer complaint against an airline ? and the DOT “formal complaint” process – Ben Edelman
Apr 17, 2020, 9:00 am
#80
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: Alaska Mileage Plan
Posts: 19
Thanks to all for posting on this thread. I certainly learned a lot and was armed with facts as I awaited a call back regarding my ANZ flight getting cancelled and possible resolution/refund.
We booked roundtrip flights from LAX-LHR-GVA last October to visit family departing on May 13 and return May 27. We almost never use online TAs since we prefer to deal directly with the airlines. But, in this case, ANZ couldn't book the Swiss Air portion of the flight when I called them directly. So, we used Priceline. When the COVID-19 situation exploded, I feared we might be screwed with the airfare - especially using Priceline.
I've been following this thread as I have waited to hear from ANZ, or my online TA in this case since we had booked our ANZ/Swiss Air flight through an online TA this time around. I was expecting not hear anything until closer to the flight. But, much to my surprise Priceline reached out to me to call them telling me they needed speak to me about my flights being cancelled and what my options would be. While waiting for a call back from Priceline, I armed myself with the info from this thread including verbiage from the original Contract of Carriage when we bought the ticket and the recent letter from the US DOT regarding cancelled flights and refunds. Much to my surprise, I was immediately offered a full refund for both tickets minus a small US$10 processing fee. We did purchase upgraded seats directly through ANZ. So, I will need to pursue that refund with them.
I really do feel for the airlines this whole mess. I guess I don't blame them for trying to get people to take a credit. In our case, it would have been a loss. My wife is starting a college program in June and will be unable to travel until late June 2021. Plus, ANZ is apparently discontinuing the LAX-LHR route at the end October, 2020.
Good luck to all getting the resolution that you desire.
We booked roundtrip flights from LAX-LHR-GVA last October to visit family departing on May 13 and return May 27. We almost never use online TAs since we prefer to deal directly with the airlines. But, in this case, ANZ couldn't book the Swiss Air portion of the flight when I called them directly. So, we used Priceline. When the COVID-19 situation exploded, I feared we might be screwed with the airfare - especially using Priceline.
I've been following this thread as I have waited to hear from ANZ, or my online TA in this case since we had booked our ANZ/Swiss Air flight through an online TA this time around. I was expecting not hear anything until closer to the flight. But, much to my surprise Priceline reached out to me to call them telling me they needed speak to me about my flights being cancelled and what my options would be. While waiting for a call back from Priceline, I armed myself with the info from this thread including verbiage from the original Contract of Carriage when we bought the ticket and the recent letter from the US DOT regarding cancelled flights and refunds. Much to my surprise, I was immediately offered a full refund for both tickets minus a small US$10 processing fee. We did purchase upgraded seats directly through ANZ. So, I will need to pursue that refund with them.
I really do feel for the airlines this whole mess. I guess I don't blame them for trying to get people to take a credit. In our case, it would have been a loss. My wife is starting a college program in June and will be unable to travel until late June 2021. Plus, ANZ is apparently discontinuing the LAX-LHR route at the end October, 2020.
Good luck to all getting the resolution that you desire.
Apr 17, 2020, 9:42 am
#81
Original Poster
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 661
People are affected by this crisis as well. Looks like NZ wants their cake and eat it too.
Apr 19, 2020, 6:36 pm
#84
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Was your flight to or from the US?
As explained repeatedly above, that is not enough. DOT will only require NZ to respond, but it will not enforce your specific entitlement.
You also need to initiate a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) and supply your e-ticket receipt, cancellation notice, your request for a refund, and the denial. Also include the April 3, US DOT Warning Letter.
You also need to initiate a chargeback with your credit card issuer (bank) and supply your e-ticket receipt, cancellation notice, your request for a refund, and the denial. Also include the April 3, US DOT Warning Letter.
Apr 19, 2020, 8:52 pm
#85
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 61
Hi Often1.
Thanks for the updates re DOT not enforcing. In NZ many people pay directly for Air NZ transactions ( as the charge for using a CC can add some $$ to the price). We use something called POLI which is essentially a direct transfer from your bank account to Air NZ's - hence no chargeback option. The other issue is the time allowing for CC chargebacks this side of the planet appears fairly restricted - about 2 months in most cases with ' exceptions' made for longer periods at the discretion of the card issuer.
So if they have bought and paid for the tickets in the last 4 months + then they first have to convince their CC issuer ( often a bank) to actually take up the option in the first place.
So, even with a good number of DOT complaints from this side of the planet, Air NZ can continue to operate as they currently do and apply a different view to refunds.
Thanks for the updates re DOT not enforcing. In NZ many people pay directly for Air NZ transactions ( as the charge for using a CC can add some $$ to the price). We use something called POLI which is essentially a direct transfer from your bank account to Air NZ's - hence no chargeback option. The other issue is the time allowing for CC chargebacks this side of the planet appears fairly restricted - about 2 months in most cases with ' exceptions' made for longer periods at the discretion of the card issuer.
So if they have bought and paid for the tickets in the last 4 months + then they first have to convince their CC issuer ( often a bank) to actually take up the option in the first place.
So, even with a good number of DOT complaints from this side of the planet, Air NZ can continue to operate as they currently do and apply a different view to refunds.
Apr 20, 2020, 9:56 am
#86
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Any of the Following PDX SFO IAH YUL HPN CDG SYD WLG AKL
Programs: AA GLD 1MM, DL DM, UA 1K Marriott Platinum, Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador , Hyatt Platinum
Posts: 464
You may want to check the payment network rules to see if there are exceptions for airlines charge backs Here are visa’s network rules which all members operate in accordance with.
https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/downlo...les-public.pdf
https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/downlo...les-public.pdf
Apr 20, 2020, 12:51 pm
#87
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Hi Often1.
Thanks for the updates re DOT not enforcing. In NZ many people pay directly for Air NZ transactions ( as the charge for using a CC can add some $$ to the price). We use something called POLI which is essentially a direct transfer from your bank account to Air NZ's - hence no chargeback option. The other issue is the time allowing for CC chargebacks this side of the planet appears fairly restricted - about 2 months in most cases with ' exceptions' made for longer periods at the discretion of the card issuer.
So if they have bought and paid for the tickets in the last 4 months + then they first have to convince their CC issuer ( often a bank) to actually take up the option in the first place.
So, even with a good number of DOT complaints from this side of the planet, Air NZ can continue to operate as they currently do and apply a different view to refunds.
Thanks for the updates re DOT not enforcing. In NZ many people pay directly for Air NZ transactions ( as the charge for using a CC can add some $$ to the price). We use something called POLI which is essentially a direct transfer from your bank account to Air NZ's - hence no chargeback option. The other issue is the time allowing for CC chargebacks this side of the planet appears fairly restricted - about 2 months in most cases with ' exceptions' made for longer periods at the discretion of the card issuer.
So if they have bought and paid for the tickets in the last 4 months + then they first have to convince their CC issuer ( often a bank) to actually take up the option in the first place.
So, even with a good number of DOT complaints from this side of the planet, Air NZ can continue to operate as they currently do and apply a different view to refunds.
Apr 20, 2020, 6:54 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2017
Programs: NZ Elite, QF Platinum, HH Diamond, Hyatt Globalist, Accor Diamond
Posts: 147
Reply from DoT and from Air NZ confirming full refund in original form of payment for all flights. Complaint sent to DoT just pre Easter - included those paid with APD.
Apr 21, 2020, 5:37 am
#89
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 200
What was the DOT correspondence?
Embarrassing for ANZ they dont know their own business ...
Apr 21, 2020, 12:04 pm
#90
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Nothing embarrassing in the least.
NZ knew all of this when it denied the refund claim in the first place. These rules have been in effect since 2011.
By denying claims in the first & second round, NZ probably eliminates well over 90% of those claims as most people figure that the reason provided must be true. For those few who do persist, NZ issues the refund.
What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.
NZ knew all of this when it denied the refund claim in the first place. These rules have been in effect since 2011.
By denying claims in the first & second round, NZ probably eliminates well over 90% of those claims as most people figure that the reason provided must be true. For those few who do persist, NZ issues the refund.
What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.
