US DOT rule applicability

Old May 10, 2020, 11:56 pm
  #151  
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Originally Posted by JamesBigglesworth
I don't think that is true.
But that's the reality many are facing. Keep in mind:

1. Law or no law, NZ could simply do refund instead of credit without any intervention.

2. As the majority shareholder, the NZ Government can push NZ to refund even without any legislation.

As I have said again and again, this does not happen with the NZ Government's sign-off. Quoting Hon. Grant Robertson, NZ Minister of Finance:

...Also, the Government owns 52% of the [Air New Zealand], which means we have a responsibility towards it...
To me, it sounds like the NZ Government failed to act, both in a business and regulatory sense.
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Old May 11, 2020, 12:45 am
  #152  
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Originally Posted by JamesBigglesworth
If you bought your ticket in NZ then the CGA and FTA both require a refund if service is not provided. This is also covered by existing case law. Now, a person *could* complain to the Commerce Commission, but as we all know that would be a largely futile effort. But Small Claims exists and works very well.
Has this been successfully tested in the current situation with Air NZ providing a refund? Asking for a friend ...
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Old May 11, 2020, 3:59 am
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Originally Posted by garykung
2. As the majority shareholder, the NZ Government can push NZ to refund even without any legislation.
They can pressure NZ as much as they like. It doesn't mean NZ have to do anything about it. The Board, and by extension the Executive, are operationally independent from the shareholders.

The Board and Executive are given significant leeway to act in what they believe to be in the best interests of the company. It is obviously not in the best interests of the company to refund every ticket as this would result in significant cash flow issues.
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Old May 11, 2020, 7:50 am
  #154  
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Originally Posted by LyingFlat
They can pressure NZ as much as they like. It doesn't mean NZ have to do anything about it. The Board, and by extension the Executive, are operationally independent from the shareholders.
That's not true, per my quick study to the NZ's corporate constitution.

The NZ Government literally holds overwhelming power over NZ as the "special" majority shareholder. The directors are independent as none of them affliated with the NZ Government, i.e. no Minister is appointed into the Board. The NZ Government can in fact remove a sitting director as it pleases. So if the NZ Government wants to push a customer-friendly agenda, the NZ Government can do it despite any opposition.

Seriously, NZ is no CX, but CA/SQ. Even publicly listing, NZ is still a SOE bottom line.
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Old May 11, 2020, 1:34 pm
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by garykung
That's not true, per my quick study to the NZ's corporate constitution.

The NZ Government literally holds overwhelming power over NZ as the "special" majority shareholder. The directors are independent as none of them affliated with the NZ Government, i.e. no Minister is appointed into the Board. The NZ Government can in fact remove a sitting director as it pleases. So if the NZ Government wants to push a customer-friendly agenda, the NZ Government can do it despite any opposition.

Seriously, NZ is no CX, but CA/SQ. Even publicly listing, NZ is still a SOE bottom line.
You've pretty much just explsined why NZ is not an SOE, and meets very few of the requirements to be an SOE. The Govt (including the current one) have always said they will take a hands off approach to their ownership.
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Old May 11, 2020, 2:10 pm
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If the government got too hands on with with AirNZ it would open them up the same issues which the ME3 get in the US for example.
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Old May 11, 2020, 4:11 pm
  #157  
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Originally Posted by sbiddle
You've pretty much just explsined why NZ is not an SOE, and meets very few of the requirements to be an SOE.
I did not. In fact, while vary, one of the key definition of SOE is ownership.

The NZ Government's ownership in NZ is absolute majority. Also - its corporation document provides a special status to the NZ Government. These are the signs that NZ exists to serve a public purpose, i.e. a SOE.

Originally Posted by sbiddle
The Govt (including the current one) have always said they will take a hands off approach to their ownership.
This is exactly why NZ is a SOE. Your statement actually indicates the NZ Government can indeed have the authority to control but choose not to do so.

Originally Posted by nzkarit
If the government got too hands on with with AirNZ it would open them up the same issues which the ME3 get in the US for example.
Well...one consumer-friendly measure hardly raises to the level of caution.

Beside - many state-owned airlines have done more but still play nice with others. The ME3 problem is mainly due to the fact that ME3 abuses the advantages.
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Old May 11, 2020, 5:59 pm
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Originally Posted by garykung
So if the NZ Government wants to push a customer-friendly agenda, the NZ Government can do it despite any opposition.

Seriously, NZ is no CX, but CA/SQ. Even publicly listing, NZ is still a SOE bottom line.
That's strictly academic. Yes, the majority shareholder can, through the appropriate channels do that. However, there would be significant ramifications for investor confidence if the government forces a company like NZ to take a course of action that the Board and Executive believe is detrimental. Investors in all partially privatised enterprises would be worried that their investments could be harmed by the government, using it's majority shareholder position, forcing the Board to take detrimental action.

As for NZ being a SOE, it's not. Under Schedule One of the State-Owned Enterprises Act 1986, only the following are SOEs:

Airways Corporation of New Zealand Limited

Animal Control Products Limited

AsureQuality Limited

Electricity Corporation of New Zealand Limited

KiwiRail Holdings Limited

Kordia Group Limited

Landcorp Farming Limited

Meteorological Service of New Zealand Limited

New Zealand Post Limited

New Zealand Railways Corporation

Quotable Value Limited

Transpower New Zealand Limited

Last edited by LyingFlat; May 11, 2020 at 11:00 pm
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Old May 11, 2020, 6:21 pm
  #159  
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When 2 airlines are involved on the same ticket and the issuing airlines cancels the route but the other airline is still operating their route what are the DOT rules regarding this? I am thinking the issuing carrier is responsible for refunding all costs. I have NZ and BA segments on the same ticket, NZ has cancelled their segment but is implying that there aren't sure if BA is going to refund the other sector since BA has not cancelled those flights which to me sounds like BS. I paid a single fare to the TA and the NZ record locator pulls up all sectors.
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Old May 11, 2020, 6:43 pm
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Originally Posted by k374
When 2 airlines are involved on the same ticket and the issuing airlines cancels the route but the other airline is still operating their route what are the DOT rules regarding this? I am thinking the issuing carrier is responsible for refunding all costs. I have NZ and BA segments on the same ticket, NZ has cancelled their segment but is implying that there aren't sure if BA is going to refund the other sector since BA has not cancelled those flights which to me sounds like BS. I paid a single fare to the TA and the NZ record locator pulls up all sectors.
What is your itinerary?
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Old May 11, 2020, 8:37 pm
  #161  
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Originally Posted by lyingflat
what is your itinerary?
lax-lhr (nz) / lhr-waw (ba)
bud-lhr (ba) / lhr-lax (nz)
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Old May 11, 2020, 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by k374
lax-lhr (nz) / lhr-waw (ba)
bud-lhr (ba) / lhr-lax (nz)
As the LAX-LHR-LAX flights have been cancelled, you are eligible for a full refund of the entire itinerary. The BA flights are included provided they are on the same ticket.
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Old May 11, 2020, 10:14 pm
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Originally Posted by Thai-Kiwi
Has this been successfully tested in the current situation with Air NZ providing a refund? Asking for a friend ...
Not that I know of for the current situation, no. I don't see that the current situation has changed existing trading law - the govt hasn't slipped through a law change on that front, have they? I have gone through this with NZ in disputes tribunal once in the past, but that wasn't this exact current situation - same general situation though. It took less than 10 minutes for the DT to rule in my favour.

I can let you know about the current situation and NZ after June 25th at 1:30pm...
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Old May 11, 2020, 10:58 pm
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by garykung

This is exactly why NZ is a SOE. Your statement actually indicates the NZ Government can indeed have the authority to control but choose not to do so.
It's already been pointed out above, but your statement is simply wrong. Air NZ is not an SOE. I suggest you have a read of NZ's laws and legislation around SOE's.

There would be a lot of outrage if the Govt took steps to force Air NZ to do things that where not in their commercial interests.
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Old May 12, 2020, 12:12 am
  #165  
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Originally Posted by sbiddle
It's already been pointed out above, but your statement is simply wrong. Air NZ is not an SOE. I suggest you have a read of NZ's laws and legislation around SOE's.
Just because the NZ Government claims it is not, it does not mean it is not.

At least PWC agrees with me.
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