US DOT rule applicability

Old Apr 21, 2020, 3:10 pm
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by Often1
Nothing embarrassing in the least.

NZ knew all of this when it denied the refund claim in the first place. These rules have been in effect since 2011.

By denying claims in the first & second round, NZ probably eliminates well over 90% of those claims as most people figure that the reason provided must be true. For those few who do persist, NZ issues the refund.

What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.

Yes the fact that from timeline DOT--> NZ email to NZ-->Me email (and DOT cced in) was less than 48 hours (and included a Sunday) suggests that either their legal team were up all night or it was their underlying plan.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 4:27 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1
What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.
Pardon? Don't think to speak on behalf of New Zealand citizens, especially if you are not one. New Zealand is its own sovereign state and the government passes legislation for New Zealand as it sees fit. The government is also a majority shareholder in Air New Zealand. If Air New Zealand's refund policy was so abhorrent to taxpayers then there are mechanisms for it to be addressed and the law to change.

The USA and EU have such laws in place because they are significantly larger markets and experience significantly more delays and flight cancellations than [Air] New Zealand. A once in 100 year global pandemic is not necessarily justification to introduce laws demanding Air New Zealand and other airlines operation here refund in this and that situation. If anything, it is likely it would happen in conjunction with Australia.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 4:58 pm
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Originally Posted by b1m9t0
Pardon? Don't think to speak on behalf of New Zealand citizens, especially if you are not one. New Zealand is its own sovereign state and the government passes legislation for New Zealand as it sees fit. The government is also a majority shareholder in Air New Zealand. If Air New Zealand's refund policy was so abhorrent to taxpayers then there are mechanisms for it to be addressed and the law to change.

The USA and EU have such laws in place because they are significantly larger markets and experience significantly more delays and flight cancellations than [Air] New Zealand. A once in 100 year global pandemic is not necessarily justification to introduce laws demanding Air New Zealand and other airlines operation here refund in this and that situation. If anything, it is likely it would happen in conjunction with Australia.
"This & that"??

This was an outright cancellation.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 5:07 pm
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Originally Posted by b1m9t0
Pardon? Don't think to speak on behalf of New Zealand citizens, especially if you are not one. New Zealand is its own sovereign state and the government passes legislation for New Zealand as it sees fit. The government is also a majority shareholder in Air New Zealand. If Air New Zealand's refund policy was so abhorrent to taxpayers then there are mechanisms for it to be addressed and the law to change.

The USA and EU have such laws in place because they are significantly larger markets and experience significantly more delays and flight cancellations than [Air] New Zealand. A once in 100 year global pandemic is not necessarily justification to introduce laws demanding Air New Zealand and other airlines operation here refund in this and that situation. If anything, it is likely it would happen in conjunction with Australia.
Concur really.
Outside of this AirNZ was good at refunding the few cancellations they had (outside of weather, which most likely wouldn't be covered anyway). To me this is the key part in BAU operations AirNZ refunded without a stick of legislation.

Even when they were first bringing in flight changes (a week before NZ's border changes) a trip I had to Japan which had the return shifted a day was offered a refund or change to next day. (I'm kicking myself as said change day).

I suspect AirNZ will go back to this policy, once this is all over. Just now with a global pandemic cash is king. I doubt the Govt will want to change things which means a national asset (a lot of exports & tourism requires an airline based in NZ with a focus on NZ) will become insolvent.

Yes a refund would be nice but I understand the business needs for credits. Future international travel for me would be more difficult without AirNZ as an airline.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 5:40 pm
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Originally Posted by nzkarit
Concur really.
Outside of this AirNZ was good at refunding the few cancellations they had (outside of weather, which most likely wouldn't be covered anyway). To me this is the key part in BAU operations AirNZ refunded without a stick of legislation.

Even when they were first bringing in flight changes (a week before NZ's border changes) a trip I had to Japan which had the return shifted a day was offered a refund or change to next day. (I'm kicking myself as said change day).

I suspect AirNZ will go back to this policy, once this is all over. Just now with a global pandemic cash is king. I doubt the Govt will want to change things which means a national asset (a lot of exports & tourism requires an airline based in NZ with a focus on NZ) will become insolvent.

Yes a refund would be nice but I understand the business needs for credits. Future international travel for me would be more difficult without AirNZ as an airline.
Which is why New Zealand, the government, ought to bail out NZ, the carrier. In that way, the national needs are carried by all in proportion, not on those who were unlucky to have cash tied up at the wrong time.

The US is bailing out its carriers, EU member states will do the same, and so on. But, individuals do not lose because they bought a ticket at a time when travel seemed quite ordinary.
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Old Apr 21, 2020, 6:30 pm
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Originally Posted by Hector99
Reply from DoT and from Air NZ confirming full refund in original form of payment for all flights. Complaint sent to DoT just pre Easter - included those paid with APD.
That is encouraging - I received a confirmation a week ago via social media channel that my refund would be processed. On Monday called as a week had passed and I had not received the refund confirmation email that I was told to expect. On this call I was told that the person who confirmed my refund did not have authority to do so and they would not be refunding me and the fare credit remained.
That lead to some 'discussion' and noting one of my fares was J and was refundable I requested that be processed (this was my 4th request). That was done while I was on the telephone and I have the confirmation email. I was told to allow 6-8 weeks for it to hit my credit card however!
My other fare was a PE sale fare NZ-LAX-LHR and they told me I was not entitled to refund and the DoT ruling only applied to US citizens. I suggested this was incorrect and the agent I was speaking, who was very pleasant throughout, took it to her Supervisor but came back confirming credit only and no refund.
If you received the refund confirmation this week maybe I should call again!
I had lodged complaint with DOT a week ago, and have now initiated the chargeback process with my card issuer.
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Last edited by ottiehund; Apr 21, 2020 at 7:36 pm
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 1:28 am
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I also lodged a complaint with DOT 2 weeks ago and they confirm my situation falls under their department rules
they emailed airnz asking them to provide me with a full refund

air nz at first refused but after I told them I have lodged an official complaint with DOT they came back saying they will
process a full refund

I am a nz citizen living in Australia
with flights from ADELAIDE- auckland - Houston return
The flight was cancelled by airnz

Good Luck !!


Originally Posted by ottiehund
That is encouraging - I received a confirmation a week ago via social media channel that my refund would be processed. On Monday called as a week had passed and I had not received the refund confirmation email that I was told to expect. On this call I was told that the person who confirmed my refund did not have authority to do so and they would not be refunding me and the fare credit remained.
That lead to some 'discussion' and noting one of my fares was J and was refundable I requested that be processed (this was my 4th request). That was done while I was on the telephone and I have the confirmation email. I was told to allow 6-8 weeks for it to hit my credit card however!
My other fare was a PE sale fare NZ-LAX-LHR and they told me I was not entitled to refund and the DoT ruling only applied to US citizens. I suggested this was incorrect and the agent I was speaking, who was very pleasant throughout, took it to her Supervisor but came back confirming credit only and no refund.
If you received the refund confirmation this week maybe I should call again!
I had lodged complaint with DOT a week ago, and have now initiated the chargeback process with my card issuer.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 1:55 am
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Originally Posted by Hector99
Yes the fact that from timeline DOT--> NZ email to NZ-->Me email (and DOT cced in) was less than 48 hours (and included a Sunday) suggests that either their legal team were up all night or it was their underlying plan.
As I have said before, the complaint process (or officially, the informal complaint process) can resolve many issues in days, as in most of the case airline will back down.

Originally Posted by Often1
What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.
I won't say that far. At the minimum, it has nothing to do with citizenship (both the U.S. and EU law do not distinguish protection based on citizenship).

Originally Posted by b1m9t0
New Zealand is its own sovereign state and the government passes legislation for New Zealand as it sees fit.
I am not so sure about that. At the minimum, the close tier of Australia and New Zealand, as well as having the same head of state, implies that New Zealand is not that independent as it is. At least, this is not a settled issue in New Zealand.

Originally Posted by b1m9t0
The government is also a majority shareholder in Air New Zealand. If Air New Zealand's refund policy was so abhorrent to taxpayers then there are mechanisms for it to be addressed and the law to change.
That's why I have been saying - whatever NZ has been doing now is sanctioned by the Government. Law or no law, NZ Government, as the majority own of NZ, can really do something based on the customer service perspective, instead of consumer protection.

The Government does not want to use the public fund to bail out, so it kind of allows NZ to keep the money as credit.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 3:57 am
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Originally Posted by Often1
Nothing embarrassing in the least.

What is most embarrassing is that NZ citizens have to look to a US agency for protection for tickets paid for in NZ on a NZ carrier. The failure of NZ to protect its own is the unfair part and it must be remembered that it is only those who had tickets to or from the US or from the EU who have this protection.
What is actually most pathetic is expecting/needing your (any) pathetic government to protect you from things like this.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 7:37 pm
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Wow, there are a lot of New Zealanders who are so precious (defensive) about their government and/or national airline. NZers act like like NZ can do no wrong.

NZ, as beautiful and prosperous as it may be, is a mere pimple on the world's buttocks, economically, militarily and every other way. Get over it.

FWIW, I am a New Zealand citizen.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 7:50 pm
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Bottom line is that NZ citizens are having to seek the protections of other sovereigns, e.g. the US and the EU, in order to protect their rights when their own government has utterly failed to do so.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 9:25 pm
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This all seems quite simple to me, AIRNZ is exploting a loop hole that creates have and havenots.The have's protection of DOT and EU get refunds, the havenots no protection get credits. At the end of the day customers have the option to stay loyal or not to do so.I chose to walk away from AIRNZ a while ago and now glad I did so as my new *A programme is doing a far better job in similar circumstances. As an example simple stuff like rebooking with no fees or charges and a nice thank you of 3000 mile bonus to boot. No way do I have that sort of flexibility with AIRNZ.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 9:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1
Bottom line is that NZ citizens are having to seek the protections of other sovereigns, e.g. the US and the EU, in order to protect their rights when their own government has utterly failed to do so.
Though those rules were designed to solve problems that don't really exist in NZ.

Before SARS-CoV-2 began its rounds it was never an issues as if a flight was cancelled outside of weather AirNZ gave a refund. Which was more than the T&Cs required. So we don't actually need these protections.

The bit that people are struggling with now is AirNZ is actually enforcing their T&Cs, when in the past they did not.

Also what rights are you referring to which need protecting? The right of a customer to ignore the T&Cs and get a refund when the T&Cs don't require it? If you wanted a refund for all cancellations AirNZ offered a product which allowed for this, most people opted for the cheaper option without this protection in the T&Cs
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 10:24 pm
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Often1
Bottom line is that NZ citizens are having to seek the protections of other sovereigns, e.g. the US and the EU, in order to protect their rights when their own government has utterly failed to do so.
Again - there is nothing to do with citizenship.

And the law enforced is either the U.S. or the EU. So why should the NZ Government act?

FWIW - many airlines are actually keeping the fund unless the law says otherwise. NZ is not alone.
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Old Apr 22, 2020, 11:03 pm
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Originally Posted by nzkarit
Before SARS-CoV-2 began its rounds it was never an issues as if a flight was cancelled outside of weather AirNZ gave a refund. Which was more than the T&Cs required. So we don't actually need these protections.

The bit that people are struggling with now is AirNZ is actually enforcing their T&Cs, when in the past they did not.

If you wanted a refund for all cancellations AirNZ offered a product which allowed for this, most people opted for the cheaper option without this protection in the T&Cs
I think these statements are a simplification, and possibly inaccurate.

If a passenger has a flight that is non-refundable under the 'fare conditions', they could still be refunded in certain circumstances under the Conditions of Carriage. An example would be where a service is cancelled completely, or has a timing adjustment that is unacceptable to the passenger. In both cases a passenger should be fully refunded irrespective of the non-refundable 'fare conditions' if any alternative travel options are unacceptable to them.

Of course, if the passenger is holding a ticket with non-refundable fare conditions, then in circumstances that drive their need to cancel (ie pax initiated cancellation) they either have accepted such a risk and are prepared to lose the fare, or have sought separate cover such as travel insurance. If they initiate cancellation on a non-refundable fare with no travel insurance, then they could still be refunded the taxes that NZ has collected on behalf of other agencies. This should happen automatically, but I have always had to ask for this.
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