Apr 6, 2020, 7:58 am
Last edit by: seawolf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
COVID-19: refund provided as voucher (for non refundable fares)
May 19, 2020, 7:52 am
#406
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: FB Platinum
Posts: 280
Seems like the 15% is not totally official yet, talking to KL customer services they indicated that it would be «somewhat higher» than ticket price. Decision is to be made asap, I was told.
Hence I will wait. 15% is also a bit on the low side compared to NAS and Wizz.
Hence I will wait. 15% is also a bit on the low side compared to NAS and Wizz.
May 19, 2020, 10:51 am
#407
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere between AMS and ANR
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Globalist, United Platinum Premier, AF/KLM Platinum
Posts: 266
Knowing AF/KL, I think that additional % will more likely be lower than the 15% currently communicated/offered. If you're expecting a higher number, you'd might be deeply disappointed.
May 19, 2020, 4:24 pm
#408
Join Date: Jan 2011
Programs: BA Silver, Hyatt Discoverist, Hilton Gold, Mariott Gold
Posts: 83
"Hello, thank you for contacting us again. Our apologies for the delayed response. We would like to clarify that the voucher is non-refundable within the one year validity. However, if unused, it will become refundable 12 months after its issue date. We hope this clarifies your concern."
May 19, 2020, 5:19 pm
#409
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
The French LOVE 15% discounts. Really, it seems like a magic number, a magical notion... I think it's because it's just élégant... something higher than 10% (nobody wants that) but something lower than 20% (we don't want to seem desperate).
Enter the Dutch. They will find a way to make the French be more pragmatic.
A group will gather on each side of the room and try to stretch a voucher as far as it can go.
Someone will measure it as it snaps (it's quite flimsy). 6% says one. 9% says another.
AFKL Corporate watches and decides on 2.5%.
PD- The Italian claims all above discounts.
:-)
May 22, 2020, 10:58 am
#410
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PHX
Posts: 4,787
It can't hurt to reach out by phone but I suspect it is not going to help either.
They are just giving everyone the run around. I had fully refundable tickets. I submitted the refund form online in March. I got the e-mail that said they were too busy. I heard nothing for a while and called around March 25 or so. It took about an hour but the agent finally agreed that the ticket conditions allowed me to refund. A week or so later, I got an e-mail responding to my online request telling me I could have a voucher. I responded that my tickets were fully refundable, this wasn't a cancellation related to COVID, and their own policies make clear I get a refund for refundable tickets. I also noted that a phone agent had already agreed to give me a refund but that they had not issued it yet.
About two weeks ago I got another e-mail responding to my early April email informing me that since AF had not yet cancelled the flight, I was only entitled to a refund of the taxes and I would have to wait to see if AF cancelled the flight. I responded that (a) I had already cancelled the ticket, (b) I had already been promised a refund by the phone agent in March, and (c) that this was not a COVID related situation but that my ticket was a fully flexible refundable ticket.
Nothing.
I am a very small sample size but my experience suggests that there's really no overriding plan here by AF other than to hold on to cash as best they can and to say whatever they need to say to do so and worry about it later.
They are just giving everyone the run around. I had fully refundable tickets. I submitted the refund form online in March. I got the e-mail that said they were too busy. I heard nothing for a while and called around March 25 or so. It took about an hour but the agent finally agreed that the ticket conditions allowed me to refund. A week or so later, I got an e-mail responding to my online request telling me I could have a voucher. I responded that my tickets were fully refundable, this wasn't a cancellation related to COVID, and their own policies make clear I get a refund for refundable tickets. I also noted that a phone agent had already agreed to give me a refund but that they had not issued it yet.
About two weeks ago I got another e-mail responding to my early April email informing me that since AF had not yet cancelled the flight, I was only entitled to a refund of the taxes and I would have to wait to see if AF cancelled the flight. I responded that (a) I had already cancelled the ticket, (b) I had already been promised a refund by the phone agent in March, and (c) that this was not a COVID related situation but that my ticket was a fully flexible refundable ticket.
Nothing.
I am a very small sample size but my experience suggests that there's really no overriding plan here by AF other than to hold on to cash as best they can and to say whatever they need to say to do so and worry about it later.
Short story -- I had fully refundable tickets. I cancelled in March and the phone agent said I would receive a refund to my credit card, after which they started jerking me around.
Anyway, I got fed up and initiated a chargeback with Amex (USA). Today -- which I believe is the 30th day that they have to respond to the chargeback -- they sent me an e-mail with a letter that said I would receive a refund in about "two weeks." The letter also said, however, that I would be charged a "handling fee" of about 12 percent of the overall fare. The letter is hilarious. It actually has two columns -- one is for "fees based on the ticketing conditions" and one is for "handling fees." Then there is a footnote -- "The Total Amount Refunded for each document includes the applicable fees linked to the fare rules as well as the handling fees." There is nothing in the "ticketing conditions" column -- because it was a fully refundable fare. But then in the "handling fees" column they have just decided to pay themselves part of the refund for refunding my refundable ticket.
I suspect it is just a gambit to try to convince Amex that they should not suffer a charge back, and it just may work -- they probably know there are limits to everyone's will to keep fighting. I'd love to be able to say, "but they will never get another dime from me," but I can't even say that because I have a bunch of miles that I have to use up in my AF account.
May 22, 2020, 11:36 am
#411
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In between BRU, AMS, DUS and LUX...
Programs: AF/KL Plat, BA Gold, A3 Gold, IHG Diamond, MR Gold, HH Diamond, ALL Platinum
Posts: 1,044
I just called the PSL to request a refund on a series of cancelled flights mid-june on AF. This trip was initally on KLM and paid using a voucher received following the cancellation of the original flights at the end of march. The KL cancelled the flights, so I got rebooked the same day on AF. Then AF cancelled the flights on May 13th (so just before the policy change concerning refunds).
I called the Dutch PSL who wanted to give me a voucher. When I enquired about getting cash back (I paid with a voucher which I received following the cancellation of a booking I paid cash), he did put me on hold for a good 5 minutes and when he took back the call, the line got bad and eventually dropped.
I then decided to call the French PSL, and spoke to a very friendly agent who told me that since the original mean of payment of this booking was a voucher, he could only offer me a refund in the form of a voucher, but with 15% on top, and refundable after 1 year if not used. I accepted the offer (well- I had no choice) and received the voucher on the spot. However, the additional 15% don't show up on the voucher value. The agent told me that their IT was still working on it, but eventually, the AF and KLM websites would automatically add the 15% at the time of payment of a new booking. I asked if this would be retroactive also and he claimed yes, unused vouchers following cancellations would be topped up of 15%, so do the residual vouchers issued in case of partial use of vouchers.
So my question is easy : Was the agent correct and is it normal that the issued voucher has not been topped of 15% ? When I try to make a new booking with it, the nominal value shows up, not the bonified one.
The entire voucher story is quite a sh*t show really...
I called the Dutch PSL who wanted to give me a voucher. When I enquired about getting cash back (I paid with a voucher which I received following the cancellation of a booking I paid cash), he did put me on hold for a good 5 minutes and when he took back the call, the line got bad and eventually dropped.
I then decided to call the French PSL, and spoke to a very friendly agent who told me that since the original mean of payment of this booking was a voucher, he could only offer me a refund in the form of a voucher, but with 15% on top, and refundable after 1 year if not used. I accepted the offer (well- I had no choice) and received the voucher on the spot. However, the additional 15% don't show up on the voucher value. The agent told me that their IT was still working on it, but eventually, the AF and KLM websites would automatically add the 15% at the time of payment of a new booking. I asked if this would be retroactive also and he claimed yes, unused vouchers following cancellations would be topped up of 15%, so do the residual vouchers issued in case of partial use of vouchers.
So my question is easy : Was the agent correct and is it normal that the issued voucher has not been topped of 15% ? When I try to make a new booking with it, the nominal value shows up, not the bonified one.
The entire voucher story is quite a sh*t show really...
May 23, 2020, 3:11 am
#413
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: LBA
Programs: KLM FB Gold, LH M&M
Posts: 454
I would like an official statement about vouchers that we have already received for flights that were cancelled *before* 15 May.
palmanfr #411 seems to indicate that 15% will added automatically by the booking system. When they fix the software. We will see...
palmanfr #411 seems to indicate that 15% will added automatically by the booking system. When they fix the software. We will see...
May 23, 2020, 7:19 am
#415
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
This whole craziness of pre-vs-post May 15 cancellations is ridiculous. Has anyone seen any complaints presented/online reporting/company communication on this?
It really is incredible that even AFTER AFKLM and other airlines were asked to refund that they would have the audacity to institute this policy. Especially since the vast majority of tickets cancelled are already in a voucher form. Then again, it doesn't surprise me...
It really is incredible that even AFTER AFKLM and other airlines were asked to refund that they would have the audacity to institute this policy. Especially since the vast majority of tickets cancelled are already in a voucher form. Then again, it doesn't surprise me...
May 23, 2020, 10:16 am
#416
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SFO
Programs: BA Avios, UA MP, AA, Choice, Club Carlson
Posts: 1,096
That's pretty unbelievable that they would invent a refund handling fee out of no where.
I looked at the AF sites again and there are administrative fees based on point of sale and point of cancellation.
For example the poor people of Canada have to pay a $30 free for the privilege of using the webform to request a ticket cancellation even though they disabled the cancel button on My Bookings awhile ago.
That being said for Air France US point of sale/ issued tickets there is no fee charged for changes made by calling their 1800 number.
https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local..._airfrance.htm
Comparing the AF websites of Canada vs US, you can see a huge difference in "admin fees" charged. Thankfully again the in US case, there are no fees to cancel by phone and no explicit declaration of fees (as they are done on the Canada site) for webform cancellations.
Additionally for fully changeable and refundable tickets there is no assessment of additional fees.: "They apply to requests to change or refund a ticket (except tickets that allow changes and refunds at no extra charge, and tickets issued for infants under 2 years of age).
That being said an airline that must follow US DOT regulations are prohibited from inventing fees post purchase that were not disclosed at the point of sale. While understandably an "administrative fee" isn't part of listed ticket fare conditions - it is something that is properly posted and publicly available for viewing and must be clear to the consumer. Currently I see absolutely no indication on the website of any universal refund "handling fee" - much less for an outrageous 12% - how did they come up with that number?
This is similar to restocking fees - if there is a restocking fee it must be either disclosed upfront or displayed on a receipt or at least on the policy page of a company's website for it to be valid. A merchant cannot arbitrarily pick a fee and charge it - imagine if it was a 50% admin/handling/restocking fee. I mean if they disclosed it as a 50% penalty in the beginning the consumer has no recourse - but a merchant is responsible to say 1. if there is a fee assessed and 2. what that fee is suppose to be. The charging of a non disclosed arbitrary fee is invalid. It is essentially a "cancellation fee"(included in fare conditions) disguised as a "handling fee(not included in fare conditions)." But in this case the handling fee is listed absolutely no where - so it is completely arbitrary.
I certainly do not think that AF is refunding cancelled US DOT regulated Covid tickets with a less 12%. US DOT is clear - if airlines cancel, you get a full refund. If you have a fully refundable ticket - you get a full refund.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds
In your specific case:
- I have a feeling that their e-mail to you has nothing to do with your dispute. You've been waiting for 2+ months, it was time that they get back to you) While the timing is curious this would assume that AF refund operations is saavy enough to have put all the pieces together and come up with an ingenious way for you to close your dispute with AMEX and accept their generous offer of a refund less 12%. I think they assume you are desperate an exhausted at this point - and will take what you can get. I mean you are not going to say "no" and it is pointless for you to call AF reservations and argue your case - most folks would just give up.
- Of course you are entitled to your full refund - but it doesn't mean you won't have to go thru more red tape to get it back. Do not close your dispute with AMEX. What will happen is that AF will issue a refund less 12% back to your card. At that point they will respond to the dispute and say: "look money refunded - happy?" And AMEX will come back to you and say, okay looks resolved - confirm that you're happy - or continue dispute.
- At that point, continue your dispute - I think that if it was Visa/MC this would be the end of the road but AMEX has a lot of pull and not only that they are known to be consumer centric when the consumer is obviously right. You'll just have to wait longer for a full resolution.
I think that they are doing to you is quite outrageous and fundamentally unnecessary - creating a mess out of a mess which delays the whole queue, makes you and other people unhappy, more work and admin costs globally and bogs down their operations and ability to help others. It just doesn't make sense unless they are truly desperate for that 12%. But I guess if the majority of consumers choose not to fight and are just thankful to get 88% of their money back - I'm the fool for thinking it doesn't make business sense.
Oh and I would file a DOT complaint as well - everything is taking tons of time to process and you want everything on paper - AF is obligated to respond to all DOT requests in writing - so they would have to prove to the DOT in some way that the less 12% was justified - I'd love to see them argue that one.
I looked at the AF sites again and there are administrative fees based on point of sale and point of cancellation.
For example the poor people of Canada have to pay a $30 free for the privilege of using the webform to request a ticket cancellation even though they disabled the cancel button on My Bookings awhile ago.
That being said for Air France US point of sale/ issued tickets there is no fee charged for changes made by calling their 1800 number.
https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local..._airfrance.htm
Comparing the AF websites of Canada vs US, you can see a huge difference in "admin fees" charged. Thankfully again the in US case, there are no fees to cancel by phone and no explicit declaration of fees (as they are done on the Canada site) for webform cancellations.
Additionally for fully changeable and refundable tickets there is no assessment of additional fees.: "They apply to requests to change or refund a ticket (except tickets that allow changes and refunds at no extra charge, and tickets issued for infants under 2 years of age).
That being said an airline that must follow US DOT regulations are prohibited from inventing fees post purchase that were not disclosed at the point of sale. While understandably an "administrative fee" isn't part of listed ticket fare conditions - it is something that is properly posted and publicly available for viewing and must be clear to the consumer. Currently I see absolutely no indication on the website of any universal refund "handling fee" - much less for an outrageous 12% - how did they come up with that number?
This is similar to restocking fees - if there is a restocking fee it must be either disclosed upfront or displayed on a receipt or at least on the policy page of a company's website for it to be valid. A merchant cannot arbitrarily pick a fee and charge it - imagine if it was a 50% admin/handling/restocking fee. I mean if they disclosed it as a 50% penalty in the beginning the consumer has no recourse - but a merchant is responsible to say 1. if there is a fee assessed and 2. what that fee is suppose to be. The charging of a non disclosed arbitrary fee is invalid. It is essentially a "cancellation fee"(included in fare conditions) disguised as a "handling fee(not included in fare conditions)." But in this case the handling fee is listed absolutely no where - so it is completely arbitrary.
I certainly do not think that AF is refunding cancelled US DOT regulated Covid tickets with a less 12%. US DOT is clear - if airlines cancel, you get a full refund. If you have a fully refundable ticket - you get a full refund.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds
In your specific case:
- I have a feeling that their e-mail to you has nothing to do with your dispute. You've been waiting for 2+ months, it was time that they get back to you) While the timing is curious this would assume that AF refund operations is saavy enough to have put all the pieces together and come up with an ingenious way for you to close your dispute with AMEX and accept their generous offer of a refund less 12%. I think they assume you are desperate an exhausted at this point - and will take what you can get. I mean you are not going to say "no" and it is pointless for you to call AF reservations and argue your case - most folks would just give up.
- Of course you are entitled to your full refund - but it doesn't mean you won't have to go thru more red tape to get it back. Do not close your dispute with AMEX. What will happen is that AF will issue a refund less 12% back to your card. At that point they will respond to the dispute and say: "look money refunded - happy?" And AMEX will come back to you and say, okay looks resolved - confirm that you're happy - or continue dispute.
- At that point, continue your dispute - I think that if it was Visa/MC this would be the end of the road but AMEX has a lot of pull and not only that they are known to be consumer centric when the consumer is obviously right. You'll just have to wait longer for a full resolution.
I think that they are doing to you is quite outrageous and fundamentally unnecessary - creating a mess out of a mess which delays the whole queue, makes you and other people unhappy, more work and admin costs globally and bogs down their operations and ability to help others. It just doesn't make sense unless they are truly desperate for that 12%. But I guess if the majority of consumers choose not to fight and are just thankful to get 88% of their money back - I'm the fool for thinking it doesn't make business sense.
Oh and I would file a DOT complaint as well - everything is taking tons of time to process and you want everything on paper - AF is obligated to respond to all DOT requests in writing - so they would have to prove to the DOT in some way that the less 12% was justified - I'd love to see them argue that one.
Just a short update on my ongoing saga with AF. At this point it has almost become satire and this is mostly for entertainment value about how unbelievably dishonest this company is.
Short story -- I had fully refundable tickets. I cancelled in March and the phone agent said I would receive a refund to my credit card, after which they started jerking me around.
Anyway, I got fed up and initiated a chargeback with Amex (USA). Today -- which I believe is the 30th day that they have to respond to the chargeback -- they sent me an e-mail with a letter that said I would receive a refund in about "two weeks." The letter also said, however, that I would be charged a "handling fee" of about 12 percent of the overall fare. The letter is hilarious. It actually has two columns -- one is for "fees based on the ticketing conditions" and one is for "handling fees." Then there is a footnote -- "The Total Amount Refunded for each document includes the applicable fees linked to the fare rules as well as the handling fees." There is nothing in the "ticketing conditions" column -- because it was a fully refundable fare. But then in the "handling fees" column they have just decided to pay themselves part of the refund for refunding my refundable ticket.
I suspect it is just a gambit to try to convince Amex that they should not suffer a charge back, and it just may work -- they probably know there are limits to everyone's will to keep fighting. I'd love to be able to say, "but they will never get another dime from me," but I can't even say that because I have a bunch of miles that I have to use up in my AF account.
Short story -- I had fully refundable tickets. I cancelled in March and the phone agent said I would receive a refund to my credit card, after which they started jerking me around.
Anyway, I got fed up and initiated a chargeback with Amex (USA). Today -- which I believe is the 30th day that they have to respond to the chargeback -- they sent me an e-mail with a letter that said I would receive a refund in about "two weeks." The letter also said, however, that I would be charged a "handling fee" of about 12 percent of the overall fare. The letter is hilarious. It actually has two columns -- one is for "fees based on the ticketing conditions" and one is for "handling fees." Then there is a footnote -- "The Total Amount Refunded for each document includes the applicable fees linked to the fare rules as well as the handling fees." There is nothing in the "ticketing conditions" column -- because it was a fully refundable fare. But then in the "handling fees" column they have just decided to pay themselves part of the refund for refunding my refundable ticket.
I suspect it is just a gambit to try to convince Amex that they should not suffer a charge back, and it just may work -- they probably know there are limits to everyone's will to keep fighting. I'd love to be able to say, "but they will never get another dime from me," but I can't even say that because I have a bunch of miles that I have to use up in my AF account.
May 23, 2020, 11:14 am
#417
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: mostly not far from AMS, otherwise NUE
Programs: FB Silver, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,381
It really is incredible that even AFTER AFKLM and other airlines were asked to refund that they would have the audacity to institute this policy. Especially since the vast majority of tickets cancelled are already in a voucher form. Then again, it doesn't surprise me...
May 23, 2020, 11:14 am
#418
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PHX
Posts: 4,787
Thanks for taking the time to post. I am going to do as you suggest and keep disputing and hope Amex is able to stand firm.
That's pretty unbelievable that they would invent a refund handling fee out of no where.
I looked at the AF sites again and there are administrative fees based on point of sale and point of cancellation.
For example the poor people of Canada have to pay a $30 free for the privilege of using the webform to request a ticket cancellation even though they disabled the cancel button on My Bookings awhile ago.
That being said for Air France US point of sale/ issued tickets there is no fee charged for changes made by calling their 1800 number.
https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local..._airfrance.htm
Comparing the AF websites of Canada vs US, you can see a huge difference in "admin fees" charged. Thankfully again the in US case, there are no fees to cancel by phone and no explicit declaration of fees (as they are done on the Canada site) for webform cancellations.
Additionally for fully changeable and refundable tickets there is no assessment of additional fees.: "They apply to requests to change or refund a ticket (except tickets that allow changes and refunds at no extra charge, and tickets issued for infants under 2 years of age).
That being said an airline that must follow US DOT regulations are prohibited from inventing fees post purchase that were not disclosed at the point of sale. While understandably an "administrative fee" isn't part of listed ticket fare conditions - it is something that is properly posted and publicly available for viewing and must be clear to the consumer. Currently I see absolutely no indication on the website of any universal refund "handling fee" - much less for an outrageous 12% - how did they come up with that number?
This is similar to restocking fees - if there is a restocking fee it must be either disclosed upfront or displayed on a receipt or at least on the policy page of a company's website for it to be valid. A merchant cannot arbitrarily pick a fee and charge it - imagine if it was a 50% admin/handling/restocking fee. I mean if they disclosed it as a 50% penalty in the beginning the consumer has no recourse - but a merchant is responsible to say 1. if there is a fee assessed and 2. what that fee is suppose to be. The charging of a non disclosed arbitrary fee is invalid. It is essentially a "cancellation fee"(included in fare conditions) disguised as a "handling fee(not included in fare conditions)." But in this case the handling fee is listed absolutely no where - so it is completely arbitrary.
I certainly do not think that AF is refunding cancelled US DOT regulated Covid tickets with a less 12%. US DOT is clear - if airlines cancel, you get a full refund. If you have a fully refundable ticket - you get a full refund.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds
In your specific case:
- I have a feeling that their e-mail to you has nothing to do with your dispute. You've been waiting for 2+ months, it was time that they get back to you) While the timing is curious this would assume that AF refund operations is saavy enough to have put all the pieces together and come up with an ingenious way for you to close your dispute with AMEX and accept their generous offer of a refund less 12%. I think they assume you are desperate an exhausted at this point - and will take what you can get. I mean you are not going to say "no" and it is pointless for you to call AF reservations and argue your case - most folks would just give up.
- Of course you are entitled to your full refund - but it doesn't mean you won't have to go thru more red tape to get it back. Do not close your dispute with AMEX. What will happen is that AF will issue a refund less 12% back to your card. At that point they will respond to the dispute and say: "look money refunded - happy?" And AMEX will come back to you and say, okay looks resolved - confirm that you're happy - or continue dispute.
- At that point, continue your dispute - I think that if it was Visa/MC this would be the end of the road but AMEX has a lot of pull and not only that they are known to be consumer centric when the consumer is obviously right. You'll just have to wait longer for a full resolution.
I think that they are doing to you is quite outrageous and fundamentally unnecessary - creating a mess out of a mess which delays the whole queue, makes you and other people unhappy, more work and admin costs globally and bogs down their operations and ability to help others. It just doesn't make sense unless they are truly desperate for that 12%. But I guess if the majority of consumers choose not to fight and are just thankful to get 88% of their money back - I'm the fool for thinking it doesn't make business sense.
Oh and I would file a DOT complaint as well - everything is taking tons of time to process and you want everything on paper - AF is obligated to respond to all DOT requests in writing - so they would have to prove to the DOT in some way that the less 12% was justified - I'd love to see them argue that one.
I looked at the AF sites again and there are administrative fees based on point of sale and point of cancellation.
For example the poor people of Canada have to pay a $30 free for the privilege of using the webform to request a ticket cancellation even though they disabled the cancel button on My Bookings awhile ago.
That being said for Air France US point of sale/ issued tickets there is no fee charged for changes made by calling their 1800 number.
https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/local..._airfrance.htm
Comparing the AF websites of Canada vs US, you can see a huge difference in "admin fees" charged. Thankfully again the in US case, there are no fees to cancel by phone and no explicit declaration of fees (as they are done on the Canada site) for webform cancellations.
Additionally for fully changeable and refundable tickets there is no assessment of additional fees.: "They apply to requests to change or refund a ticket (except tickets that allow changes and refunds at no extra charge, and tickets issued for infants under 2 years of age).
That being said an airline that must follow US DOT regulations are prohibited from inventing fees post purchase that were not disclosed at the point of sale. While understandably an "administrative fee" isn't part of listed ticket fare conditions - it is something that is properly posted and publicly available for viewing and must be clear to the consumer. Currently I see absolutely no indication on the website of any universal refund "handling fee" - much less for an outrageous 12% - how did they come up with that number?
This is similar to restocking fees - if there is a restocking fee it must be either disclosed upfront or displayed on a receipt or at least on the policy page of a company's website for it to be valid. A merchant cannot arbitrarily pick a fee and charge it - imagine if it was a 50% admin/handling/restocking fee. I mean if they disclosed it as a 50% penalty in the beginning the consumer has no recourse - but a merchant is responsible to say 1. if there is a fee assessed and 2. what that fee is suppose to be. The charging of a non disclosed arbitrary fee is invalid. It is essentially a "cancellation fee"(included in fare conditions) disguised as a "handling fee(not included in fare conditions)." But in this case the handling fee is listed absolutely no where - so it is completely arbitrary.
I certainly do not think that AF is refunding cancelled US DOT regulated Covid tickets with a less 12%. US DOT is clear - if airlines cancel, you get a full refund. If you have a fully refundable ticket - you get a full refund.
https://www.transportation.gov/indiv...ection/refunds
In your specific case:
- I have a feeling that their e-mail to you has nothing to do with your dispute. You've been waiting for 2+ months, it was time that they get back to you) While the timing is curious this would assume that AF refund operations is saavy enough to have put all the pieces together and come up with an ingenious way for you to close your dispute with AMEX and accept their generous offer of a refund less 12%. I think they assume you are desperate an exhausted at this point - and will take what you can get. I mean you are not going to say "no" and it is pointless for you to call AF reservations and argue your case - most folks would just give up.
- Of course you are entitled to your full refund - but it doesn't mean you won't have to go thru more red tape to get it back. Do not close your dispute with AMEX. What will happen is that AF will issue a refund less 12% back to your card. At that point they will respond to the dispute and say: "look money refunded - happy?" And AMEX will come back to you and say, okay looks resolved - confirm that you're happy - or continue dispute.
- At that point, continue your dispute - I think that if it was Visa/MC this would be the end of the road but AMEX has a lot of pull and not only that they are known to be consumer centric when the consumer is obviously right. You'll just have to wait longer for a full resolution.
I think that they are doing to you is quite outrageous and fundamentally unnecessary - creating a mess out of a mess which delays the whole queue, makes you and other people unhappy, more work and admin costs globally and bogs down their operations and ability to help others. It just doesn't make sense unless they are truly desperate for that 12%. But I guess if the majority of consumers choose not to fight and are just thankful to get 88% of their money back - I'm the fool for thinking it doesn't make business sense.
Oh and I would file a DOT complaint as well - everything is taking tons of time to process and you want everything on paper - AF is obligated to respond to all DOT requests in writing - so they would have to prove to the DOT in some way that the less 12% was justified - I'd love to see them argue that one.
May 23, 2020, 1:28 pm
#419
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Of course, the longer they wait, the fewer people will benefit from the 15% as vouchers are redeemed and people forget...
Sorry for the pessimistic calculus but every single action they have taken has been consistent with conserving cash at the expense of the consumer.
As an occasional lecturer at business schools, I would absolutely love to bring this case to a business ethics class...
May 23, 2020, 11:22 pm
#420
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,557
It might be useful to know your exact fare code and itinerary.
Full refund without fee is getting rare those days unless you pay an atrocious price. Many tickets are flexible in terms of change, and refundable but with a penalty.
Without examination of the exact fare rules of your ticket, it is hard to know whether the 12% is not the normal penalty that applies for refund.