Apr 6, 2020, 7:58 am
Last edit by: seawolf
European Commission EC261/2004 guidelines in context of COVD-19 dated 18 MAR 2020
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
US DoT Enforcement Notice regarding refunds dated 3 APR 2020.
COVID-19: refund provided as voucher (for non refundable fares)
Jun 16, 2020, 10:03 am
#481
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
What kind of nonsense is this? Anyone else experience this?
After submitting several vouchers for a cash refund I received this as an answer:
"Thank you for your patience. As the voucher 057xxxxx. is the residual value of another voucher, we cannot refund it. You will be able to use it on our website. "
After submitting several vouchers for a cash refund I received this as an answer:
"Thank you for your patience. As the voucher 057xxxxx. is the residual value of another voucher, we cannot refund it. You will be able to use it on our website. "
As for their voucher, it's not a residual of another voucher... it is the residual of money paid to Air France for a flight they cancelled!
Jun 16, 2020, 10:05 am
#482
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
I would hang in there for a little bit. I've noticed net increases across the board but AFKL is not immune from competition....nor are they immune from people gradually becoming more comfortable with traveling.....
Jun 16, 2020, 10:25 am
#484
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Jun 16, 2020, 3:13 pm
#485
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 293
Jun 16, 2020, 4:12 pm
#486
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paris
Programs: AA LT Plat (4m+), AF Plat, A3 Gold, Hyatt Lifetime Globalist, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat/Ambassador
Posts: 2,648
Jun 17, 2020, 6:17 pm
#487
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 423
Ticket booked on KLM's website on Sept 19 using my AMEX Biz Plat. YYC-AMS-CPT return trip ticket for May 5 to Jun 2.
On Feb 28, we changed the ticket (for additional fee) on KLM's website to an open-jaw (also on my AMEX Biz Plat): YYC-AMS-CPT May 5, DAR-AMS-YYC Jun 2.
World went crazy.
Mar 28, email from KLM that YYC-AMS cancelled.
Apr 9, AMS-CPT cancelled.
Apr 10, DAR-AMS cancelled.
(I didn't receieve anything about cancellation of AMS-YYC. Did the flight happen?)
Mar 29, I submitted a claim through the insurance (Global Excel) on my AMEX Biz Plat.
I got any email today Jun 17 from Global Excel:
"Thank you for notifying us of your request to open a claim under your above referenced policy.
Provided that you have the appropriate coverage, your insurance policy offers a reimbursement for eligible travel arrangements that are non-refundable. Since you may be refunded in the form of a credit, we are unable to provide reimbursement for Travel expenses under your policy at this time.
Should you choose to use your credit towards a new booking, your policy provides coverage for the rebooking fee charged by your
travel provider. Please note that any cost related to a difference in airfare and other claimable travel expenses remains your
responsibility."
I called Global Excel and I was told that since KLM is offering a credit, claim is denied.
I went on KLM's website and it looks like they added cash refund as an option. I was going to pick either CANCELLED FLIGHT or FLIGHT DISRUPTIONS for REFUND REASON. What do you think?
Or...
I can try to call AMEX and do a chargeback (but I think there's certain time you have to do it by?)
Advice please.
On Feb 28, we changed the ticket (for additional fee) on KLM's website to an open-jaw (also on my AMEX Biz Plat): YYC-AMS-CPT May 5, DAR-AMS-YYC Jun 2.
World went crazy.
Mar 28, email from KLM that YYC-AMS cancelled.
Apr 9, AMS-CPT cancelled.
Apr 10, DAR-AMS cancelled.
(I didn't receieve anything about cancellation of AMS-YYC. Did the flight happen?)
Mar 29, I submitted a claim through the insurance (Global Excel) on my AMEX Biz Plat.
I got any email today Jun 17 from Global Excel:
"Thank you for notifying us of your request to open a claim under your above referenced policy.
Provided that you have the appropriate coverage, your insurance policy offers a reimbursement for eligible travel arrangements that are non-refundable. Since you may be refunded in the form of a credit, we are unable to provide reimbursement for Travel expenses under your policy at this time.
Should you choose to use your credit towards a new booking, your policy provides coverage for the rebooking fee charged by your
travel provider. Please note that any cost related to a difference in airfare and other claimable travel expenses remains your
responsibility."
I called Global Excel and I was told that since KLM is offering a credit, claim is denied.
I went on KLM's website and it looks like they added cash refund as an option. I was going to pick either CANCELLED FLIGHT or FLIGHT DISRUPTIONS for REFUND REASON. What do you think?
Or...
I can try to call AMEX and do a chargeback (but I think there's certain time you have to do it by?)
Advice please.
Jun 17, 2020, 7:18 pm
#488
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 1
my air tap was just cancelled for aug to venice.. kind of surprised.. I filled out the voucher info..received confirmation with a reference number to check on status of the refund, but funny thing is- the number is not being recognized at all! Has this happened to anyone? Does it take a day or two for it to register?
Jun 17, 2020, 7:32 pm
#489
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
Of course if you are eligible to receive a REFUND, in currency, that's quite different -- would indeed negate the loss and hence eliminate the insurance claim.
Jun 18, 2020, 7:10 am
#490
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 423
What do your Global Excel terms say about vouchers/credits? Anything? My starting point would be that if this is a covered claim (this cancellation among the reasons covered by your policy), only a genuine refund from the airline offsets your loss. You paid real money in currency. A credit subject to expiration, T&C's, nontransferability, etc. is not money. Unless insurance terms say that any such credit is offset against your payment, I'd expect insurance to provide refund in currency and only be offset by actual currency received from other sources.
Of course if you are eligible to receive a REFUND, in currency, that's quite different -- would indeed negate the loss and hence eliminate the insurance claim.
Of course if you are eligible to receive a REFUND, in currency, that's quite different -- would indeed negate the loss and hence eliminate the insurance claim.
https://www.insurance.americanexpres...erts-16400.pdf
Jun 18, 2020, 12:38 pm
#491
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bellevue, WA - AA EXP 3MM
Posts: 2,756
Well, page 28 says the insurance covers "the portion of your travel arrangements ... that are non-refundable and non-transferable to another date." If an airline is willing to provide a voucher for travel at another date of your choice, that provision on page 28 would seem to deny coverage. Page 29 continues: "Any credits provided by the airline or travel supplier for travel on another date are considered transferable amounts and shall not be payable under this insurance."
Jun 18, 2020, 2:03 pm
#492
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 423
Well, page 28 says the insurance covers "the portion of your travel arrangements ... that are non-refundable and non-transferable to another date." If an airline is willing to provide a voucher for travel at another date of your choice, that provision on page 28 would seem to deny coverage. Page 29 continues: "Any credits provided by the airline or travel supplier for travel on another date are considered transferable amounts and shall not be payable under this insurance."
Another thing, on my morning phone call with KLM, the agent mentioned that the value of the voucher and it's in euro. That started got me thinking and it turns out that the value of the voucher is not close to what I paid in total CAD (original ticket, change fee, and fare difference). I called KLM again and turns out that they are refusing to reimburse back the change fees. That's another BS IMO. What also baffled me is why is the value of the voucher in euro when I my original form of payment is in CAD and the ticketing was done on KLM's Canada website.
I just got off the phone with AMEX Biz Plat and initiated a chargeback on all 3 transactions. We shall see if KLM going to dispute my chargeback.
Jun 19, 2020, 2:12 am
#493
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,339
I'd say that the normal procedure would be to go through KLM and leave Amex out of it initially. KLM can refund your payments, and according to their latest terms, they will.
From what I understand KLM did offer to give you the refund but the amount is less than the sum of your payments. How much less? Are we talking about the ticket issuance fee (10 eur) and the change fee (Likely $150-$200)? That is quite typical and I do not believe that they are required to refund those. Theory being, the process of (re) issuing your ticket is a service and that is what you pay the fees for. Once the ticket is (re) issued that service has been delivered (hence you cannot get a refund for that - the service you paid for has been rendered).
But...the original ticket price, plus the fare difference for the change, that should be refundable. Does that match what KLM has offered?
If you initiated a chargeback for all the money paid, including (likely) a few hundred $ for the change/re-issue fees, it is very likely that the claim would be denied I'd say. And while I fully agree that this is unfair, I'm afraid KLM would be in the right. Having said that I am no legal expert, but this is my understanding of how it works.
From what I understand KLM did offer to give you the refund but the amount is less than the sum of your payments. How much less? Are we talking about the ticket issuance fee (10 eur) and the change fee (Likely $150-$200)? That is quite typical and I do not believe that they are required to refund those. Theory being, the process of (re) issuing your ticket is a service and that is what you pay the fees for. Once the ticket is (re) issued that service has been delivered (hence you cannot get a refund for that - the service you paid for has been rendered).
But...the original ticket price, plus the fare difference for the change, that should be refundable. Does that match what KLM has offered?
If you initiated a chargeback for all the money paid, including (likely) a few hundred $ for the change/re-issue fees, it is very likely that the claim would be denied I'd say. And while I fully agree that this is unfair, I'm afraid KLM would be in the right. Having said that I am no legal expert, but this is my understanding of how it works.
Last edited by Xandrios; Jun 19, 2020 at 2:18 am
