Nov 6, 2017, 3:33 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).This is only applicable in the first year.
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
Upcoming changes to Flying Blue in 2018
Nov 10, 2017, 11:17 am
#661
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
This is all. FB summed up in one handy graphic.
[One observation: the "<36 mois" for Ivory->Platinum (in particular) while technically correct, is somewhat misleading. Very few people would get the "full" first year of Ivory to get to Silver, then take the "full" year of Silver to get Gold, and then take the "full" year of Gold to get Platinum. Anyone doing this would have to almost double their flying in the second year, and almost treble it in the third. As such, and given that the "years" reset as you go up, this 580XP may have to be accumulated in a far shorter timeframe. Once you pass 100XP, you've lost whatever part of the first 12 months was left; once you then pass 180XP, you again lose whatever part of the "second" 12 months was left. Most people will, in practice, find this timescale compressed - perhaps oppressively so. But indeed....there is no way to "graphically" capture that...other than to just show that one must go through the necessary rungs shown on top, each rung requiring a maximum of one year]
So I would suggest... New on top, current below (MS = "Miles-statut")
[One observation: the "<36 mois" for Ivory->Platinum (in particular) while technically correct, is somewhat misleading. Very few people would get the "full" first year of Ivory to get to Silver, then take the "full" year of Silver to get Gold, and then take the "full" year of Gold to get Platinum. Anyone doing this would have to almost double their flying in the second year, and almost treble it in the third. As such, and given that the "years" reset as you go up, this 580XP may have to be accumulated in a far shorter timeframe. Once you pass 100XP, you've lost whatever part of the first 12 months was left; once you then pass 180XP, you again lose whatever part of the "second" 12 months was left. Most people will, in practice, find this timescale compressed - perhaps oppressively so. But indeed....there is no way to "graphically" capture that...other than to just show that one must go through the necessary rungs shown on top, each rung requiring a maximum of one year]
So I would suggest... New on top, current below (MS = "Miles-statut")
Last edited by irishguy28; Nov 10, 2017 at 11:47 am
Nov 10, 2017, 11:18 am
#662
Moderator: Aegean Miles+Bonus
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: AMS / ATH
Programs: AFKL Plat, A3 Gold
Posts: 7,339
Nov 10, 2017, 2:53 pm
#663
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Programs: SK Gold, ITA Executive, Sixt Diamond, Hertz PC, Avis PC, IHG Platinum
Posts: 5,163
Nov 11, 2017, 3:09 am
#664
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: HAG
Programs: Der 5* FTL
Posts: 8,051
Dear all,
We have published today our infographic on the changes to Flying Blue, this is in french only but please let us know if you have any comment or if we made any mistake.
We tried to make it as clear as possible but it's still very difficult to compare the two programs.
We have published today our infographic on the changes to Flying Blue, this is in french only but please let us know if you have any comment or if we made any mistake.
We tried to make it as clear as possible but it's still very difficult to compare the two programs.
It would be also worth to mention short international flights in business class, which previously earn from 1500-1875 (<750 miles) to 5000 will now earn 15XP, so instead of 27-22 (<750 miles) to 8 (high class, 2000mi) flights it will take 12 flights to make Gold.
Lastly, in an article for French audience, you might want to use French mileage limits, not international ones. (so 30k/60k/90k instead of 25k/40k/70k)
That thread is about AF not AZ.
Nov 11, 2017, 4:59 am
#665
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
Why is it such a huge issue for someone who flies mostly business? FFP status is only valuable to the extent that it gets you advantages that you do not get from class of travel and FB Gold does not get you much that you do not already get from Premium class flying. Unless you tend to travel with the kitchen sink, the extra baggage will not usually be a major issue if you mostly business anyway so it really boild down to extra award miles. But on that basis, FB was never a shining star anyway as the earn/burn ratio with FB is hardly stellar so if that was your main motivation, then you would not go for FB in the first place anyway.
Also, there is an element of the tail wagging the dog in expecting the FFP to be designed around those switching FFPs. That constituency must represent a tiny proportion of elites.
The new programme is more of a problem for people like me who tend to yo-yo through levels. The programme creates an incentive for me to fly ST a little more regularly not to let my status plummet so as to avoid having to re-build it. I can see the sense of this from AF's perspective.
Also, there is an element of the tail wagging the dog in expecting the FFP to be designed around those switching FFPs. That constituency must represent a tiny proportion of elites.
The new programme is more of a problem for people like me who tend to yo-yo through levels. The programme creates an incentive for me to fly ST a little more regularly not to let my status plummet so as to avoid having to re-build it. I can see the sense of this from AF's perspective.
My major motivation for FB Gold is lounge access on regional, whether in Europe/France or in China.
No doubt that someone who is already Gold will not suffer much from the resetting changes. But this is a change that will last. Each year there is a new cohort of "young" people, and my comments primarily apply to those who have a choice of starting investing in a FFP and an alliance.
The "jumping ship" constituency is indeed small in number even if they fly a lot. That does not mean that they are negligible from a profit viewpoint.
Sure, if you are based in France any change will not make difference in terms of selecting a primary FFP. I have always felt that FB was unattractive for most non-Europeans. I understand that AFKL has a huge priority on European members, as they should. But they have not found a way to make it attractive for others. For example, their Asian traffic suffers from that philosophy. They fail to attract Asian residents. FB might not be the major reason, but it is not a negligible one. That is a much smaller constituency than European flyers to Asia, but these "marginal" pax are very significant in terms of profit on those routes. Just focusing on the big bulk and forgetting about a (sizable) marginal constituency is IMO a mistake in terms of profits.
Talking about a market that I know well (with a lot of inside information), AF has constantly reduced capacity to HKG while CX has increased it. And CX has been much more proactive to get France-originating pax than AF to get HK-originating pax.
Nov 11, 2017, 5:21 am
#666
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
They didn't prioritise them in the old system where the very expensive fares got more miles, but regardless: doing that makes commercial sense if you consider the goal of a frequent flyer programme which is to take away business from competitors by inciting loyalty.
People on expensive fares don't do buy them because they like throwing money at airlines but because they have no or very little choice because of route, time, or commercial constraints. So it makes no commercial sense to give such customers extra benefits more quickly; these people will buy the tickets anyway and they'll spend a ton of cash doing it.
The customers you need to incite loyalty in are those that are most likely to shop around. I.e., those on the cheaper fares.
You keep them.
It's *meant* to be a little bit harder if you are taking lots of cheap EU flights. This is evidenced by the slightly (if measured in EU flights) or significantly (domestic) higher qualification criterion. On the other hand it's now easier if you fly more long-haul flights which is where AFKL makes most of their money.
Even from zero, 4 CDG-HKG returns (8 flights) give gold in the new program (at 72XP each), you will reach silver after three flights and then gold after 5 more flights. Once you've done that, all you need to *remain* qualified is those 5 flights. And if you are doing returns, the third return will give you 36XP of rollover for the next year.
People on expensive fares don't do buy them because they like throwing money at airlines but because they have no or very little choice because of route, time, or commercial constraints. So it makes no commercial sense to give such customers extra benefits more quickly; these people will buy the tickets anyway and they'll spend a ton of cash doing it.
The customers you need to incite loyalty in are those that are most likely to shop around. I.e., those on the cheaper fares.
You keep them.
It's *meant* to be a little bit harder if you are taking lots of cheap EU flights. This is evidenced by the slightly (if measured in EU flights) or significantly (domestic) higher qualification criterion. On the other hand it's now easier if you fly more long-haul flights which is where AFKL makes most of their money.
Even from zero, 4 CDG-HKG returns (8 flights) give gold in the new program (at 72XP each), you will reach silver after three flights and then gold after 5 more flights. Once you've done that, all you need to *remain* qualified is those 5 flights. And if you are doing returns, the third return will give you 36XP of rollover for the next year.
You are right that the 36XP for ultra longhaul instead of 30XP for longhaul makes a difference in my case. Thanks for pointing out. It sill means that it will take time to go through the silver hoop.
And I strongly disagree with your view that most customers don't care about the cost of longhaul business. I think that you are describing a situation of the past. Maybe some mammoth French corporation still don't care. Maybe some corporate VIPs can still select purely on convenience. I have done my share of one-day trips to the US from Paris or Hong Kong, often in F, and then selected the most convenient flights, cost being a less important factor. But nowadays many (most ?) companies will be very cost-conscious and prefer to save a few thousands euro and have their executives lose a few hours of work. Then the pax has some options and the FFP characteristics have relevance. Everyone, private or corporate customer, now shops for fares, economy or business, short or longhaul.
To give a sample of size one (me), I don't care saving one hundred on a cheapo European fare. I (or my clients) do care about saving two thousands on a longhaul business fare.
Nov 11, 2017, 6:49 am
#667
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,063
I don't know where you found the word "most" in my post, but I certainly did not write it.
What I was saying is that the people who currently buy full fare tickets likely will continue doing that because they already aren't doing it because they don't care about the money but rather because they have no choice in the matter.
What I was saying is that the people who currently buy full fare tickets likely will continue doing that because they already aren't doing it because they don't care about the money but rather because they have no choice in the matter.
Nov 11, 2017, 6:55 am
#668
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,922
They fail to attract Asian residents. FB might not be the major reason, but it is not a negligible one. That is a much smaller constituency than European flyers to Asia, but these "marginal" pax are very significant in terms of profit on those routes. Just focusing on the big bulk and forgetting about a (sizable) marginal constituency is IMO a mistake in terms of profits.
Again, this is all based on my memory and I apologize if my memory is wrong 
And I strongly disagree with your view that most customers don't care about the cost of longhaul business. I think that you are describing a situation of the past. Maybe some mammoth French corporation still don't care. Maybe some corporate VIPs can still select purely on convenience. I have done my share of one-day trips to the US from Paris or Hong Kong, often in F, and then selected the most convenient flights, cost being a less important factor. But nowadays many (most ?) companies will be very cost-conscious and prefer to save a few thousands euro and have their executives lose a few hours of work. Then the pax has some options and the FFP characteristics have relevance. Everyone, private or corporate customer, now shops for fares, economy or business, short or longhaul.
To give a sample of size one (me), I don't care saving one hundred on a cheapo European fare. I (or my clients) do care about saving two thousands on a longhaul business fare.
To give a sample of size one (me), I don't care saving one hundred on a cheapo European fare. I (or my clients) do care about saving two thousands on a longhaul business fare.
Nov 11, 2017, 12:20 pm
#669
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Now:AUS (again); Previous: LGA/EWR (BLKYN, missing JFK), AUS, SAT
Programs: Current: UA-Silver, Former AA Plat, DL Silver
Posts: 593
Not to harp on this point, but I'd love for someone at AF/KLM to explain the logic between making domestic Romanian and Kenyan flights worth 4 XP and domestic US flights — regardless of distance — worth 2XP. It really screws folks who don't live in US cities with nonstop AF/KLM service and connect using Delta.
Nov 11, 2017, 12:34 pm
#671
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
)
Nov 11, 2017, 1:10 pm
#672
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730
The new Flying Blue qualification currency gets its mainstream media debut
(Stranger Things 2, Episode 5. Confirmation that FB is a product of the Upside Down?)
(Stranger Things 2, Episode 5. Confirmation that FB is a product of the Upside Down?)
Nov 11, 2017, 3:22 pm
#674
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SJC / SFO
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum; Marriott Bonvoy Platinum; Hilton Gold
Posts: 785
Not to harp on this point, but I'd love for someone at AF/KLM to explain the logic between making domestic Romanian and Kenyan flights worth 4 XP and domestic US flights — regardless of distance — worth 2XP. It really screws folks who don't live in US cities with nonstop AF/KLM service and connect using Delta.
https://twitter.com/airfrance/status/928635157275439106
https://twitter.com/airfrance/status/928665034024157185
https://twitter.com/airfrance/status/928635157275439106
https://twitter.com/airfrance/status/928665034024157185
There still are more unanswered questions - are the earnings based on the miles & fare class really remain unchanged (the percentages)? How is Delta's domestic first class seen in the XP chart? For Delta the FB calculator omits First class and incorrectly reports F fare as premium economy (the P, G, A are used for both domestic US first class & Delta Premium Select - and when you book Delta Premium Select, domestic segments are usually in first class). How much miles do you earn for Delta's Premium Select (because right now in the chart it's 200% for P fare)?
Without having answers for these I don't think one can evaluate if they should switch to SkyMiles or remain with FB.
Nov 11, 2017, 7:15 pm
#675
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,556
I don't know where you found the word "most" in my post, but I certainly did not write it.
What I was saying is that the people who currently buy full fare tickets likely will continue doing that because they already aren't doing it because they don't care about the money but rather because they have no choice in the matter.
What I was saying is that the people who currently buy full fare tickets likely will continue doing that because they already aren't doing it because they don't care about the money but rather because they have no choice in the matter.
But the notion of "full fare" tickets is now outdated. Let's just use the word "expensive". On FT you get a lot of posters who buy their own tickets, but most premium fare tickets are bought by companies with the pax having some options to choose under constraints imposed by the company. In today's world, companies (except for some mammoths) are cost conscious even on expensive fares (where cost differences can be huge) and pax have some option to choose.