Nov 6, 2017, 3:33 am
Last edit by: irishguy28
Introduction
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).This is only applicable in the first year.
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
As you have been following the past thread, the Flying Blue programme will change as of 1 April 2018. In order to split the discussion from the earlier thread, we have created a new thread.
On 6 November Flying Blue has organised a press conference to inform the public about the changes to the programme. In addition, a mailing will be sent out to all members on the 6th and 7th of November and more information can be found on the designated website (link: https://explorefurther.flyingblue.com).
As an introduction, please find a summary of the changes below.
Please note that at the current time there is no difference expected to the benefits of the current tier.
Change 1: no more level miles, no more segments, but Experience Points
As of 1 April 2018 you will no longer earn level miles and segments per flight, but you will earn Experience Points (XP). The number of XP earned per flight depends on your cabin (multiplier times 2 for Premium Economy, 3 for business, 5 for La Premiere) and the type of flight (distinction between domestic, medium haul, long-haul 1/2/3).
For flights between 1 January – 31 March 2018 all earned level miles and segments will be converted into XP (1 segment = 7 XP; 1,000 level miles = 5 XP for members outside France). Please note that the highest conversion applies (it is not cumulative).
The number of XP required per tiers is:
- 100 for Silver;
- 180 for Gold;
- 300 for Platinum;
- 1,800 for Platinum Ultimate (in 2 years).
Please note that for current flyers who qualify on segments based on only intra-EU flights this could see an increase in the number of flights required. However, if you fly a mix if intra-EU and intercontinental (but qualify on segments), this will most likely see a reduction in the number of flights required to qualify.
For elite members, there is a roll-over of all XP above your tier threshold.
The rules for soft-landing have been extended. It is now no longer required to make at least 1 qualifying flight and in case you do not meet your threshold you will only drop one tier.
Change 2: number of miles earned dependent on fare paid (including fuel surcharge)
The number of award miles (for AF/KL/A5) earned is now depending on the fare paid (including fuel surcharge). Ivory members earn 4 miles per Euro, Silver 6, Gold 7 and Platinum 8.
Also earn award miles on AF/KL purchases (relating to seats, baggage and meals) according to the above schedule.
Earnings on partners remains as-is (based on fare class and distance flown).
Change 3: dynamic pricing of award tickets (on AF/KL/HV)
Another change will be that award tickets will have dynamic pricing, e.g. an award AMS-JFK could be more expensive than an award DUS-AMS-JFK. This is also in line with change 2, as flights from AMS are also more expensive than flights from DUS (you also earn more miles).
This also implies that we will see a difference in the number of miles required per flight. For example, an award from continental Europe to continental USA will currently set you back 25,000 miles for a one-way in economy. It does not matter if you fly to LAX or NYC, the number of miles is currently fixed. Under the new proposition, this will change. The cheaper flight (in this example: NYC) will see a slight reduction in the number of miles required, whilst LAX will see a slight increase in the number of miles required.
Furthermore, there will be a standard base level for the number of miles required per destination. As the standard revenue price increases, so does the number of award miles.
Change 4: status valid for 12 months (+ 3 months), personal membership year
FB will be moving away from membership year = calendar year (in case of upgrade of tier). Instead, FB will have an individual membership year. This means that after obtaining the higher tier, you will have 12 months to requalify. Benefit of this is that members are not bound by the calendar year (e.g. members who earn 20,000 level miles in a December of a given year and 20,000 level miles in January of the next year, do not have any benefit of their flights in case limited flights before/after).
I know some will feel that this is a significant downgrade compared to the current – at maximum – 27 months. Please note that based on FB information the majority of members (re)qualify in the last quarter of the year.
In addition, please note that for an Ivory member would like to go obtain Platinum in one year, as it will become more difficult, as (s)he will have to earn each threshold (so not 300 XP in the first year, but (100 + 180 + 300 = 580 XP).
Change 5: changes to the co-branded American Express credit cards (FR/NL)
Currently you earn segments and level miles (on AF/KL purchases for Gold and Platinum card holders). This will change that you will receive additional XP when reaching your membership anniversary each year.
Upcoming changes to Flying Blue in 2018
Nov 9, 2017, 6:45 am
#631
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
Of course they do -- FB is the FFP for the French national carrier. They'll also have a disproportionate number of Dutch members as compared to internationally.
But, the restrictions on French residents are in fact abolished as of April next year. The last thing you'll see in that regard is the slightly lower level miles to XP conversion owing to the higher qualification requirements in the current programme. After that it's the same for everyone.
Nov 9, 2017, 6:45 am
#632
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,935
. For other people, 1000 LM = 5XP.I have 4xp and I'm pretty sure it's the rule for french resident. What's weird is there's no difference for segment conversion, 7XP for all...
if you go
https://explorefurther.flyingblue.co...r_Code=generic
you have the 5xp
and
https://explorefurther.flyingblue.co...r_Code=generic
give you 4XP
if you go
https://explorefurther.flyingblue.co...r_Code=generic
you have the 5xp
and
https://explorefurther.flyingblue.co...r_Code=generic
give you 4XP
And they get rid of the distinction FR resident vs non-FR but at the same time apply a different conversion factor ?? That doesn’t make any sense !
Nov 9, 2017, 6:49 am
#633
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
And they get rid of the distinction FR resident vs non-FR but at the same time apply a different conversion factor ?? That doesn’t make any sense !
Suppose for a moment that there was a country whose residents only needed 10k level miles for platinum -- it would not be reasonable to convert at the same rate as the 10k level miles (equalling platinum in that system) would convert to only 50XP equalling not even silver.
This is the same concept but in reverse.
Nov 9, 2017, 6:53 am
#634
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Paris, France
Programs: AF/KL Flying Blue Platinum for life/Club2000 Ultimate, Accor ALL Diamond
Posts: 21,935
Looking at the bottom picture... I would expect to see there also 7XP rule for segments, but you don't have it.
And it mentions Ultimate?
So possibly 4XP per 1k miles or 7XP per segment for French members, BUT 5XP per 1k miles (with no regard to segment) for French Ultimates?
And it mentions Ultimate?
So possibly 4XP per 1k miles or 7XP per segment for French members, BUT 5XP per 1k miles (with no regard to segment) for French Ultimates?
Nov 9, 2017, 7:49 am
#635
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hong Kong, France
Programs: FB , BA Gold
Posts: 15,568
Any word on mileage redemption?
Any word on ULTI, qualification requirements, benefits?
Interesting to see that all the wisecracks - including myself! - who were certain that status earning will have a minimum spend got it wrong; we also thought that they’ll increase re/qualification thresholds - they did for people starting from scratch, but remained the same for requalification, which is still possible with segments (without calling it that way). And, we were completely off by thinking that segment would no longer be a relevant measure - it is, as XPs are awarded (amongst other things) on a segment basis. Except that now the value of every segment can be increased by booking a higher class, which actually could be attractive for some.
I can see their logic for still giving some sort of status to the lower yielding frequent travelers, but for thinning out the top. Which makes a lot of sense.
I must say, not Armageddon at all, contrary to our expectations. Which leaves me to wonder whether the bitter pill is hidden elsewhere. In redemption levels for instance, or in making some status benefits optional (« choice benefits » is something that DL uses, isn’t it?).
Any word on ULTI, qualification requirements, benefits?
Interesting to see that all the wisecracks - including myself! - who were certain that status earning will have a minimum spend got it wrong; we also thought that they’ll increase re/qualification thresholds - they did for people starting from scratch, but remained the same for requalification, which is still possible with segments (without calling it that way). And, we were completely off by thinking that segment would no longer be a relevant measure - it is, as XPs are awarded (amongst other things) on a segment basis. Except that now the value of every segment can be increased by booking a higher class, which actually could be attractive for some.
I can see their logic for still giving some sort of status to the lower yielding frequent travelers, but for thinning out the top. Which makes a lot of sense.
I must say, not Armageddon at all, contrary to our expectations. Which leaves me to wonder whether the bitter pill is hidden elsewhere. In redemption levels for instance, or in making some status benefits optional (« choice benefits » is something that DL uses, isn’t it?).
AFKL”modernized” their FB but kept the same philosophy for status. They keep prioritizing cheap Y fares. Gold is the status that matters most (lounge access etc). To compare to BA, they give 5 to cheapo eco European flights and 30 to biz long haul. BA gives 5 to cheap European flights and 140 to biz longghaul. BA equivalent to FB Gold is OW saphirs called Silver. You need 180 XS in FB and 600 TP in BAEC. ANYONE CAN COMPUTE THE RATIOS.
IMO, a major change is for ivory members who now must go through the hoop of silver reset before reaching gold. Let’s assume you are based abroad and do a return long haul in biz in April, September and December earning 30 XS each leg. By September you will have earned 120 and reset to Siver (not sure if you keep the extra 20 or lose them). Then you will need a full year to qualify for Gold. But that is unless your next-year trip does not take place a few days later in September.
Anyway, it makes it mharder and certainly longer to qualify for Gold. Of course, I have a personal bias. I was considering moving back to AF now that I am reasonably assured to get BEST From HONG KONG. No way that I will do it if it takes me 2 years to reach Gold. Frankly that is silly for anyone new in the future or considering to jump ship. A colleague of mine just qualified from scratch for BA Silver (equivalent to FB Gold again) with just two hkg-cdg in J (720 TP) on BA in three months. Why would he ever consider doing some 5 return from hkg on AF and wait well over a year because the silver reset. The maths are approximate but the meaning is clear. This is silly.
Last edited by brunos; Nov 9, 2017 at 8:09 am
Nov 9, 2017, 9:14 am
#636
Join Date: May 2009
Location: AMS
Posts: 2,064
They didn't prioritise them in the old system where the very expensive fares got more miles, but regardless: doing that makes commercial sense if you consider the goal of a frequent flyer programme which is to take away business from competitors by inciting loyalty.
People on expensive fares don't do buy them because they like throwing money at airlines but because they have no or very little choice because of route, time, or commercial constraints. So it makes no commercial sense to give such customers extra benefits more quickly; these people will buy the tickets anyway and they'll spend a ton of cash doing it.
The customers you need to incite loyalty in are those that are most likely to shop around. I.e., those on the cheaper fares.
You keep them.
It's *meant* to be a little bit harder if you are taking lots of cheap EU flights. This is evidenced by the slightly (if measured in EU flights) or significantly (domestic) higher qualification criterion. On the other hand it's now easier if you fly more long-haul flights which is where AFKL makes most of their money.
Even from zero, 4 CDG-HKG returns (8 flights) give gold in the new program (at 72XP each), you will reach silver after three flights and then gold after 5 more flights. Once you've done that, all you need to *remain* qualified is those 5 flights. And if you are doing returns, the third return will give you 36XP of rollover for the next year.
People on expensive fares don't do buy them because they like throwing money at airlines but because they have no or very little choice because of route, time, or commercial constraints. So it makes no commercial sense to give such customers extra benefits more quickly; these people will buy the tickets anyway and they'll spend a ton of cash doing it.
The customers you need to incite loyalty in are those that are most likely to shop around. I.e., those on the cheaper fares.
(not sure if you keep the extra 20 or lose them).
Anyway, it makes it mharder and certainly longer to qualify for Gold.
Of course, I have a personal bias. I was considering moving back to AF now that I am reasonably assured to get BEST From HONG KONG. No way that I will do it if it takes me 2 years to reach Gold. Frankly that is silly for anyone new in the future or considering to jump ship. A colleague of mine just qualified from scratch for BA Silver (equivalent to FB Gold again) with just two hkg-cdg in J (720 TP) on BA in three months. Why would he ever consider doing some 5 return from hkg on AF and wait well over a year because the silver reset. The maths are approximate but the meaning is clear. This is silly.
Last edited by CyBeR; Nov 9, 2017 at 9:20 am
Nov 9, 2017, 12:29 pm
#637
Join Date: Oct 2016
Programs: FB Gold, BA Silver, HH Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Marriott Plat Premier
Posts: 71
Having done further sums via the FB Miles calc the new program is clearly designed to reward more premium flying as already mentioned here but didn't realise by how much!
Under the current program by the end of the year I will retain Gold but I am at least 35,000 miles / 24 segments short of Platinum but having taken a few intra European Business flights under the new XP points I would have achieved Platinum with a healthy sum to spare. The thought of starting at Ivory or Silver though...
Under the current program by the end of the year I will retain Gold but I am at least 35,000 miles / 24 segments short of Platinum but having taken a few intra European Business flights under the new XP points I would have achieved Platinum with a healthy sum to spare. The thought of starting at Ivory or Silver though...
Last edited by shotb83; Nov 9, 2017 at 12:52 pm
Nov 9, 2017, 12:44 pm
#638
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: NYC
Posts: 99
People on expensive fares don't do buy them because they like throwing money at airlines but because they have no or very little choice because of route, time, or commercial constraints. So it makes no commercial sense to give such customers extra benefits more quickly; these people will buy the tickets anyway and they'll spend a ton of cash doing it.
For business class I do agree with you because status is less valuable at that point anyway so someone buying J late on as opposed to Z early on isn't going to choose airline based on the program but more likely based on quality of product and convenience.
Nov 9, 2017, 2:13 pm
#639
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Paris
Programs: FB Platinum, All Accor Platinum
Posts: 532
But it’s still weird because look at the other sceeenshot I posted (the green one). It says clearly that they will convert my level miles at the 5XP conversion rate ?
And they get rid of the distinction FR resident vs non-FR but at the same time apply a different conversion factor ?? That doesn’t make any sense !
And they get rid of the distinction FR resident vs non-FR but at the same time apply a different conversion factor ?? That doesn’t make any sense !
) i see 5XP!
Nov 9, 2017, 11:38 pm
#640
Moderator: Flying Blue (Air France & KLM)
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Programs: Flying Blue (AF/KL)
Posts: 4,711
Unless that is, is you have a lot of SkyTeam flights outside these flights.
Nov 9, 2017, 11:56 pm
#641
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: CPT,AMS
Posts: 4,412
Even if you are flying 100% business there are some benefits as you get some extra luggage and "Preferred waitlist/standby status" which gives you better chance in case of IRROPS.
But even Ulti members here often report of their flights in Y
But even Ulti members here often report of their flights in Y
Nov 10, 2017, 12:48 am
#642
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: SJC / SFO
Programs: Flying Blue Platinum; Marriott Bonvoy Platinum; Hilton Gold
Posts: 785
Still, most of the benefits are for Y fliers. J is mainly about more award miles, since yeah, better IRROPS treatment is great but you want to avoid that anyway.
Nov 10, 2017, 12:59 am
#643
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: France
Programs: FB Plat for Life, UAMP, BAEC, Accor ALL Platinum, Marriott silver, Hilton, Meliá silver.
Posts: 3,120
2) Preferential treatment in case of irrop ( including preferred treatment on stand-by or WL)
3) Lounge access when flying Y (short haul, holiday family flights etc)
4) Extra luggage (in Y or C)
5) Free economy comfort when flying Y
6) Access to First class awards
7) And more
Nov 10, 2017, 1:59 am
#644
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: Flying Blue, IB, Miles and More, Delta
Posts: 112
1) Taking guests into the lounge
2) Preferential treatment in case of irrop ( including preferred treatment on stand-by or WL)
3) Lounge access when flying Y (short haul, holiday family flights etc)
4) Extra luggage (in Y or C)
5) Free economy comfort when flying Y
6) Access to First class awards
7) And more
2) Preferential treatment in case of irrop ( including preferred treatment on stand-by or WL)
3) Lounge access when flying Y (short haul, holiday family flights etc)
4) Extra luggage (in Y or C)
5) Free economy comfort when flying Y
6) Access to First class awards
7) And more
If you fly business and your partner no, it will feel strange.
And who will use an extra luggage in C in real life? You need a third arm to use it.
First class awards why not but really expensive.
Obviously if you fly C for work and Y for leisure quite a lot, having a status is great. But otherwise, the perks gives more the impression of a very theoritical freedom.
Nov 10, 2017, 3:13 am
#645
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: France
Programs: FB Plat for Life, UAMP, BAEC, Accor ALL Platinum, Marriott silver, Hilton, Meliá silver.
Posts: 3,120
Many people fly C long haul and Y short haul, even for business
The Y PAX will appreciate the lounge comfort in all cases.
Once again, short haul flights in Y + 1 partner is better in the lounge.
Me
Yes, but some people dream about it. And if you fly C long haul, you clock up very many miles especially when Gold FB.
Indeed. Don't forget Y short haul for business as said above.
If you fly business and your partner no, it will feel strange.
Once again, short haul flights in Y + 1 partner is better in the lounge.
And who will use an extra luggage in C in real life? You need a third arm to use it.
First class awards why not but really expensive.
Obviously if you fly C for work and Y for leisure quite a lot, having a status is great.
Last edited by carnarvon; Nov 10, 2017 at 3:20 am