Jul 25, 2021, 6:09 pm

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Jun 15, 2022, 11:29 am

#526

canadiancow

A FlyerTalk Posting Legend

Join Date: Sep 2012

Location: SFO

Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond

Posts: 44,353

Okay that was quick. I'm just checking both old and new distances to be within 3% of the Haversine, and here's the output:

Code:

BKK-HKG old Aeroplan distance (1172) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1049)
DEN-DFW new Aeroplan distance (960) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (641)
DEN-SNA old Aeroplan distance (1311) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (844)
DXB-VIE old Aeroplan distance (1838) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (2624)
FLR-LHR old Aeroplan distance (5354) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (756)
FLR-SFO old Aeroplan distance (5685) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (6105)
FRA-VIE old Aeroplan distance (373) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (385)
ICN-PEK old Aeroplan distance (588) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (560)
ICN-ZRH old Aeroplan distance (1280) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (5433)
ISL-VIE old Aeroplan distance (554) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (777)
KUL-PEK old Aeroplan distance (1901) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (2742)
LAX-RAR old Aeroplan distance (4982) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (4683)
LHR-VIE old Aeroplan distance (552) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (792)
MUC-TXL old Aeroplan distance (312) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (298)
PEK-ULN old Aeroplan distance (363) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (724)
SLC-YYZ new Aeroplan distance (1902) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1656)
TPA-YYZ old Aeroplan distance (1057) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1096)
VIE-ZAG old Aeroplan distance (171) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (165)
YEG-YOW new Aeroplan distance (1669) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1770)
YEG-YYC old Aeroplan distance (158) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (152)

Some of these are definitely issues, but I can also tweak the threshold.

Jun 15, 2022, 11:49 am

#527

Adam Smith

Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist

Original Poster

Join Date: Feb 2015

Location: YYC

Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver

Posts: 16,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancow

Okay that was quick. I'm just checking both old and new distances to be within 3% of the Haversine, and here's the output:

Code:

BKK-HKG old Aeroplan distance (1172) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1049)
DEN-DFW new Aeroplan distance (960) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (641)
DEN-SNA old Aeroplan distance (1311) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (844)
DXB-VIE old Aeroplan distance (1838) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (2624)
FLR-LHR old Aeroplan distance (5354) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (756)
FLR-SFO old Aeroplan distance (5685) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (6105)
FRA-VIE old Aeroplan distance (373) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (385)
ICN-PEK old Aeroplan distance (588) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (560)
ICN-ZRH old Aeroplan distance (1280) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (5433)
ISL-VIE old Aeroplan distance (554) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (777)
KUL-PEK old Aeroplan distance (1901) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (2742)
LAX-RAR old Aeroplan distance (4982) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (4683)
LHR-VIE old Aeroplan distance (552) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (792)
MUC-TXL old Aeroplan distance (312) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (298)
PEK-ULN old Aeroplan distance (363) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (724)
SLC-YYZ new Aeroplan distance (1902) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1656)
TPA-YYZ old Aeroplan distance (1057) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1096)
VIE-ZAG old Aeroplan distance (171) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (165)
YEG-YOW new Aeroplan distance (1669) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (1770)
YEG-YYC old Aeroplan distance (158) more than 0.03 off of Haversine distance (152)

Some of these are definitely issues, but I can also tweak the threshold.

That 3% is a decent flag. Some of those might have been transposed in the old spreadsheet (the one before I took it over). I definitely found a few that were massively off, but when I realized someone had just been off by a row or column, it made sense, so I shifted them.

I should have caught the YEG-YOW one, because we had the old distance. I'm guessing that was just a typo from @YZF_Elite, who's the one who reported it, and that it should have been 1769. Then again, it could have been a brain fart, since YEG-YYZ is 1669. Perhaps he could clarify for us.

PEK-ULN is clearly someone who flew a 50% fare.

YYZ-SLC is my bad. I was sent both the base and total SQM, and I just looked at the wrong line.

Jun 15, 2022, 12:50 pm

#528

ACflyerDE

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: FRA

Programs: AC SE 1MM, UA 1K, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Marriott Gold Elite, Hertz PC

Posts: 2,943

This is awesome, thanks for your work canadiancow!

FLR-LHR 5354 miles? Ouch

I am afraid we won‘t get a new distance for MUC-TXL since TXL is permanently closed for all commercial traffic.

Jun 15, 2022, 1:42 pm

#529

Adam Smith

Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist

Original Poster

Join Date: Feb 2015

Location: YYC

Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver

Posts: 16,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACflyerDE

FLR-LHR 5354 miles? Ouch

I'll have to go look at the old spreadsheet. It's likely that [something else that starts with F]-LHR is actually 5354. It wasn't uncommon for people to just put things in the wrong cell.

Quote:

I am afraid we won‘t get a new distance for MUC-TXL since TXL is permanently closed for all commercial traffic.

Indeed, and I wonder whether we should be cleaning out stuff like that, or whether people get some nostalgic thrill out of it existing.

Jun 15, 2022, 1:56 pm

#530

canadiancow

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Join Date: Sep 2012

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Posts: 44,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Smith

Indeed, and I wonder whether we should be cleaning out stuff like that, or whether people get some nostalgic thrill out of it existing.

If our value is (was?) correct, I see no reason to remove it.

Jun 15, 2022, 7:02 pm

#531

canadiancow

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Posts: 44,353

Okay, I've added a useful number in the message (3.5% is very different from 5000%), and I've incorporated Adam's early updates.

Code:

BKK-HKG old Aeroplan distance (1172) off of Haversine distance (1049) by 11.7%
DEN-SNA old Aeroplan distance (1311) off of Haversine distance (844) by 55.3%
DXB-VIE old Aeroplan distance (1838) off of Haversine distance (2624) by 30%
FLR-LHR old Aeroplan distance (5354) off of Haversine distance (756) by 608.2%
FLR-SFO old Aeroplan distance (5685) off of Haversine distance (6105) by 6.9%
FRA-VIE old Aeroplan distance (373) off of Haversine distance (385) by 3.1%
ICN-PEK old Aeroplan distance (588) off of Haversine distance (560) by 5%
ICN-ZRH old Aeroplan distance (1280) off of Haversine distance (5433) by 76.4%
ISL-VIE old Aeroplan distance (554) off of Haversine distance (777) by 28.7%
KUL-PEK old Aeroplan distance (1901) off of Haversine distance (2742) by 30.7%
LAX-RAR old Aeroplan distance (4982) off of Haversine distance (4683) by 6.4%
LHR-VIE old Aeroplan distance (552) off of Haversine distance (792) by 30.3%
MUC-TXL old Aeroplan distance (312) off of Haversine distance (298) by 4.7%
PEK-ULN old Aeroplan distance (363) off of Haversine distance (724) by 49.9%
SLC-YYZ new Aeroplan distance (1902) off of Haversine distance (1656) by 14.9%
TPA-YYZ old Aeroplan distance (1057) off of Haversine distance (1096) by 3.6%
VIE-ZAG old Aeroplan distance (171) off of Haversine distance (165) by 3.6%
YEG-YOW new Aeroplan distance (1669) off of Haversine distance (1770) by 5.7%
YEG-YYC old Aeroplan distance (158) off of Haversine distance (152) by 3.9%

I think these should be deleted from the database:
DEN-SNA
DXB-VIE
FLR-LHR
ICN-ZRH
ISL-VIE
KUL-PEK
LHR-VIE
PEK-ULN
SLC-YYZ
YEG-YOW

BKK-HKG probably should be too, but it's substantially closer compared to the others.

So then we're left with:

Code:

BKK-HKG old Aeroplan distance (1172) off of Haversine distance (1049) by 11.7%
FLR-SFO old Aeroplan distance (5685) off of Haversine distance (6105) by 6.9%
FRA-VIE old Aeroplan distance (373) off of Haversine distance (385) by 3.1%
ICN-PEK old Aeroplan distance (588) off of Haversine distance (560) by 5%
LAX-RAR old Aeroplan distance (4982) off of Haversine distance (4683) by 6.4%
MUC-TXL old Aeroplan distance (312) off of Haversine distance (298) by 4.7%
TPA-YYZ old Aeroplan distance (1057) off of Haversine distance (1096) by 3.6%
VIE-ZAG old Aeroplan distance (171) off of Haversine distance (165) by 3.6%
YEG-YYC old Aeroplan distance (158) off of Haversine distance (152) by 3.9%

The bottom two are only off by 6 miles, but the rest are still pretty substantial.

Bohemian1 likes this.

Jun 15, 2022, 7:08 pm

#532

Bohemian1

Join Date: Aug 2013

Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)

Programs: AC*SE100K, wood level status in various other programs

Posts: 6,232

Nice data scrubbing!

Now, we just need volunteers to fly all of those routes. Yes, I am a completist.

YYC3722 likes this.

Jun 15, 2022, 7:09 pm

#533

ChrisA330

Join Date: Mar 2001

Location: Toronto, ON

Programs: AC 75K

Posts: 6,363

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancow

So then we're left with:

Code:

BKK-HKG old Aeroplan distance (1172) off of Haversine distance (1049) by 11.7%
FLR-SFO old Aeroplan distance (5685) off of Haversine distance (6105) by 6.9%
FRA-VIE old Aeroplan distance (373) off of Haversine distance (385) by 3.1%
ICN-PEK old Aeroplan distance (588) off of Haversine distance (560) by 5%
LAX-RAR old Aeroplan distance (4982) off of Haversine distance (4683) by 6.4%
MUC-TXL old Aeroplan distance (312) off of Haversine distance (298) by 4.7%
TPA-YYZ old Aeroplan distance (1057) off of Haversine distance (1096) by 3.6%
VIE-ZAG old Aeroplan distance (171) off of Haversine distance (165) by 3.6%
YEG-YYC old Aeroplan distance (158) off of Haversine distance (152) by 3.9%

The bottom two are only off by 6 miles, but the rest are still pretty substantial.

I think you can remove FLR-SFO…can’t imagine that’s ever been a non-stop route.

canadiancow likes this.

Jun 15, 2022, 8:00 pm

#534

Adam Smith

Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist

Original Poster

Join Date: Feb 2015

Location: YYC

Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver

Posts: 16,778

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiancow

I think these should be deleted from the database:

Hold on a sec. Let me go and see if some of them are actually just off by a cell.

Jun 15, 2022, 10:41 pm

#535

Adam Smith

Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist

Original Poster

Join Date: Feb 2015

Location: YYC

Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver

Posts: 16,778

Solved:

PEK-ULN: clearly a 50% earning fare; deleted
ZRH-ICN: was entered in wrong cell, actually YYZ-IAH distance; deleted
BKK-HKG: had two different entries in the two halves of the table, one of which was 1065 (<2% different from haversine), although no idea where 1172 came from; fixed
FLR-SFO: actually FRA-SFO distance - how did @canadiancow not catch that?! ; deleted
YYZ-SLC: 1902 was Comfort fare, base was 1654; fixed
YYZ-TPA: same as BKK-HKG, one entry was about right, haven't figured out where the incorrect one came from; fixed
LAX-RAR: another with different data in the two halves, looks like it was just a typo (4682 vs 4982); fixed

Incorrect, pending confirmation from original posters:

YOW-YEG: @YZF_Elite
DEN-DFW: @MillennialMiles

Likely correct, just somewhat high % due to small distances:

ICN-PEK
MUC-TXL
YEG-YYC
VIE-ZAG
FRA-VIE: I can confirm this one, actually. I got 187 on a 50% earning fare in 2018, so 373 is definitely closer than 385

Definitely wrong, but I haven't identified the root cause yet:

FLR-LHR: definitely entered in the wrong cell, just haven't figured out where it came from yet
DEN-SNA: not sure
LHR-VIE: off by right about 30%. Did OS have 70% earning fares at some point?
DXB-VIE: same
ISL-VIE: same
KUL-PEK: this wouldn't be OS, probably CA, but same?

Last edited by Adam Smith; Jun 16, 2022 at 7:52 am

Jun 16, 2022, 1:29 pm

#536

vancouver25k

Join Date: Sep 2015

Posts: 1,190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bohemian1

Nice data scrubbing!

Now, we just need volunteers to fly all of those routes. Yes, I am a completist.

Add a new column for volunteers to fly routes where data is lacking. Bonus: assign random people to fly said routes.

Jun 16, 2022, 4:04 pm

#537

ACflyerDE

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: FRA

Programs: AC SE 1MM, UA 1K, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Marriott Gold Elite, Hertz PC

Posts: 2,943

How many old Aeroplan datapoints do we have that need to be updated?

Jun 16, 2022, 4:37 pm

#538

canadiancow

A FlyerTalk Posting Legend

Join Date: Sep 2012

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Posts: 44,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACflyerDE

How many old Aeroplan datapoints do we have that need to be updated?

https://github.com/scottkennedy/ac-a..._distances.csv

Jun 16, 2022, 11:21 pm

#539

Adam Smith

Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist

Original Poster

Join Date: Feb 2015

Location: YYC

Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver

Posts: 16,778

Solved (with a reasonable degree of confidence):

DEN-SNA: another with different entries in the two halves of the table; fixed
KUL-PEK: no plausible nearby pairs that would be about the right mileage, suspect this was a 70% fare on CA, which did exist for some time; deleted

Incorrect, pending confirmation from original posters (deleted, pending responses):

YOW-YEG: @YZF_Elite
DEN-DFW: @MillennialMiles

Definitely wrong, but I haven't identified the root cause yet:

FLR-LHR: definitely entered in the wrong cell, just haven't figured out where it came from yet
LHR-VIE: off by right about 30%. Did OS have 70% earning fares at some point?
DXB-VIE: same
ISL-VIE: same

I spent some time looking through old Wayback Machine pages. No evidence of OS ever having 70% earning fares. Odd that three different VIE distances would be off by right around 30%, as they're probably the only Aeroplan partner that would have been flying all of those (obviously TK might have done ISL-VIE).

City pairs where we had the correct distance, but haven't figured out whence the incorrect one came:

BKK-HKG 1172
YYZ-TPA 1057 (typo 1097?)

Last edited by Adam Smith; Jun 17, 2022 at 12:20 am Reason: Clarification

Jun 17, 2022, 5:09 am

#540

YZF_Elite

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: YOW

Programs: AC E75 / Marriott Titanium Elite

Posts: 952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Smith

Solved (with a reasonable degree of confidence):

DEN-SNA: another with different entries in the two halves of the table; fixed
KUL-PEK: no plausible nearby pairs that would be about the right mileage, suspect this was a 70% fare on CA, which did exist for some time; deleted

Incorrect, pending confirmation from original posters (deleted, pending responses):

YOW-YEG: @YZF_Elite
DEN-DFW: @MillennialMiles

Definitely wrong, but I haven't identified the root cause yet:

FLR-LHR: definitely entered in the wrong cell, just haven't figured out where it came from yet
LHR-VIE: off by right about 30%. Did OS have 70% earning fares at some point?
DXB-VIE: same
ISL-VIE: same

BKK-HKG 1172
YYZ-TPA 1057 (typo 1097?)

Yes, my bad it was YYZ-YEG, guess the lack of direct flight options these days had me through YYZ and I forgot and misread my log.

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