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AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

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Old Jun 4, 19, 4:54 pm
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
It does...
Duh... there it is... I was focused on the stolen credit card bit.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 5:22 pm
  #77  
 
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Originally Posted by quitecryptic View Post
Its pretty obvious the woman is just feigning ignorance. No one would reasonably buy half price tickets from a random person online and assume it's 100% legit. She knew what she was doing and decided to risk it, and it didn't work out.

You can give benefit of the doubt to an extent, but not this far.
Watch the national tonight when Rankins story runs, then you will see and hear her and can assess for yourself.
My understanding is that she was told she was buying at an employee discount price, not nesessarly employee discount tickets.

Last edited by yul36; Jun 4, 19 at 5:28 pm
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Old Jun 4, 19, 5:49 pm
  #78  
 
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I've read most but not all of the posts in this thread. Clearly, the majority of FT'ers have little sympathy for this lady.

As others have pointed out, "employee pricing" is fairly common in the automotive industry. I know someone who works at a car manufacturer and if I wanted employee pricing, I know something could be arranged pretty easily. Similarly, I have a friend who once worked at a well-known consumer electronics company and annually she was able to purchase up to one of every product for at least 10% off MSRP and up to 25% off depending on the exact product. The terms & conditions prevented resale on eBay and similar (products were tracked by serial #) but buying on behalf of your friends & family was OK. For cruises, is it really uncommon to see fares decrease on some routes the closer one gets to sailing date? And even in the airline industry, immediate family including kids up to age xx (25?) are able to avail of "employee pricing".

So to someone who otherwise knows nothing of air travel, an ad on [insert website of choice] promising cheap airfares is not entirely unreasonable. Fake news is out there and some people actually believe it. Why would a super cheap airfare be any different?
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Old Jun 4, 19, 5:54 pm
  #79  
 
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Following the examples above I guess I would never buy cars, well-known consumer electronics or cruises on WeChat from someone named CaptainCooll either and expect it to be a safe or legitimate transaction, regardless of how the pricing was described.

But call me cynical.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 6:06 pm
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
That isn't the scam.

1. Steal (or buy stolen) CC
2. Advertise discount tickets, perhaps with a reasonable pitch like "emoyee pricing"
3. Regular person buys tickets, pays scammer with their CC,
4. Scammer buys ticket with stolen CC, passes on details to regular person
5. Scammer pockets all (3)
OK, I see, I misunderstood. It is hard to feel sorry for someone who thinks buying plane tickets on WeChat from someone with a sketchy name is legit. Isn't teh credit card issuer ultimately on the hook with Air Canada if the cards were stolen?
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Old Jun 4, 19, 6:12 pm
  #81  
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If she pays up, will she get her AQMs and AQDs? Almost SE!
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Old Jun 4, 19, 6:26 pm
  #82  
 
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Originally Posted by Resurrection View Post
OK, I see, I misunderstood. It is hard to feel sorry for someone who thinks buying plane tickets on WeChat from someone with a sketchy name is legit. Isn't teh credit card issuer ultimately on the hook with Air Canada if the cards were stolen?
Usually the merchants get shafted.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:04 pm
  #83  
 
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Originally Posted by The Lev View Post
I can't imagine that AC has a leg to stand on here, but they have got the message across.
The airline most certainly does. One is not allowed to profit or otherwise benefit from a criminal act. The woman obtained a financial benefit because of credit card fraud. There are laws in Canada that address this issue. One can start with Proceeds of Crime Act.


A few people have emphasized the delay at Air Canada in "responding", Please note that it may not necessarily be Air Canada's fault. The issue is most likely with the credit card issuer and associated financial institution. The matter can be exacerbated if the financial institution is in a hostile foreign jurisdiction such as China where information is not readily shared with Canadian entities.

Unfortunately, most Canadians are oblivious to the fact that literally hundreds of millions of dollars of assets are stolen every year through cyber crime and extortion. Having been implicated in a few cases, I have the impression that Canada's banks are irresponsible corporate citizens who have taken advantage of the lax Canadian regulations to avoid responsibility for a national security risk that the government has refused to tackle despite multiple warnings from CSIS, the RCMP, academics and multiple think tanks. Keep in mind that Canada has a major money laundering crisis because provincial and federal authorities have refused to intervene. Even after a scathing report on money laundering in BC, was released, both the provincial and federal governments have not really done anything to stop the activity and yet people blame Air Canada.

What do people expect from Air Canada, the victim of a fraud, when the the financial sector as a matter of practice ,will not divulge information to victims or parties attempting to investigate a crime unless there are court orders and warrants. This is done under the guise of "privacy". However, I believe it is related to their attempt to minimize their civil liability for providing the platform that allowed the fraud to occur with such ease.

People on this board may be surprised to learn that a bank even when told of a cyber crime will not divulge its recovery actions. It may advise that a suspect account has been frozen, but that's it. There is a mandatory 90 day freeze on the most basic sharing of information once a formal claim is made . However, that claim requires the signing of waivers and other documentation. Because of financial institution practices, it is not unusual to see a claim delayed by 3-6 months just in this phase alone. Also keep in mind that Air Canada had to depend on the police to investigate. In case anyone did not know, cyber theft and fraud is a low priority for investigation. Most Canadian police services do not have the expertise, nor skills to investigate complex mulitnational fraud. Air Canada is the victim of crime; stop blaming the vicitm.

IMO, the woman complaining here, knew exactly what she was doing; that the airfare was too good to be true. She played the system and pushed her luck too far and she got caught. She is lucky this happened in Canada and not China, because the Chinese would not have let her get away with this. Maybe, that's why she flew on Air Canada and not with a Chinese airline.
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Last edited by Transpacificflyer; Jun 4, 19 at 7:09 pm
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:25 pm
  #84  
 
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So if Ms. Qian decides not to fly AC anymore she doesn't have to pay? Doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

Reading this topic I realized that I'm incredibly naive. Few years ago a vacation package was fraudulently charged to my CC. They even purchased travel insurance! Of course, I never received any info about the fraudster. For some reason I thought that the fraudster himself was about to take the vacation. But apparently it was some poor sucker who thought he was getting a vacation deal of his life.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:34 pm
  #85  
 
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
Also keep in mind that Air Canada had to depend on the police to investigate. In case anyone did not know, cyber theft and fraud is a low priority for investigation. Most Canadian police services do not have the expertise, nor skills to investigate complex mulitnational fraud.
This is so true. In a former job my employer along with a number of other similar industries was cheated in a multinational crime. Police were investigating it when I started the job, and 6 years later when I left no progress had been made at all. Clearly they were not interested in financial crimes. Much easier to bust a shoplifter, convenience store robber or people speeding on the highway. Financial crimes seem to be as low a priority as anything can be for our police forces, especially at the local level.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:35 pm
  #86  
 
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Too bad they aren't pressing charges against her. She knew what she was doing, this wasn't a "first time naive mistake".
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:48 pm
  #87  
 
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Originally Posted by Resurrection View Post
OK, I see, I misunderstood. It is hard to feel sorry for someone who thinks buying plane tickets on WeChat from someone with a sketchy name is legit. Isn't teh credit card issuer ultimately on the hook with Air Canada if the cards were stolen?
Customers negotiate with the CC companies different liability assumption schemas, which impacts the merchant fees they pay. A big "service" company like AC with presumably sophisticated IT may feel that its better to manage fraud in-house, and negotiates a lower rate in exchange for assuming the consequences of fraud. Other types of businesses may negotiate deals for which they pay a higher percentage, but all transactions that duly authorize are covered.

The curious thing is that she was able to travel so many times before AC caught up to her. Which tells me that AC's internal processes are of fairly poor quality. At some level, AC has some culpability here, especially if this woman can prove that she was the innocent victim of a scam. Almost as bad as the notorious case of AC giving out poorly documented discount passcodes, and then doing little to no audit for years, except in retrospect to nail a customer they deemed undesirable for unrelated reasons.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:55 pm
  #88  
 
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Originally Posted by DCP2016 View Post
Too bad they aren't pressing charges against her. She knew what she was doing, this wasn't a "first time naive mistake".

...and you know this how?

What I saw on TV was young woman from a totally different culture​ ​who actually thought she was getting a good deal. While none of us would buy tickets from capt. cool, ​g​iven the penetration of we chat in China the transaction may have ​seemed​​ routine​ to her. I for one am prepared to cut her some slack. If AC doe's not want her business, so be it she has lots of choices to get to ​China. Wait until the narrative ​back home goes viral that Air Canada ​( bad Canadian Company ) ​is bullying this poor Chinese student​. ​
I suspect that will hurt their bottom line more than the 18 grand they are trying to get from her.​
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Old Jun 4, 19, 7:59 pm
  #89  
 
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Sounds like she would have got scammed whether she was in Canada or China. While I have no sympathy for those who prey on others, there are often consequences for the people who get sucked in.

I doubt AC will seriously attempt to recover the money. But her hiring a lawyer to fight a 'ban' by AC seems equally questionable. She is lucky she wasn't simply taken for the money - AC was.
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Old Jun 4, 19, 8:11 pm
  #90  
 
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Remove air canada from the scenario and generalize it. Fraudster A advertises fantastic deals for product X. Buyer B "purchases" product X from Fraudster A who purchases Product X from the producer/distribtor/vendor of Product X using a fraudulent credit card and Buyer picks it up from the producer/distributor/vendor of Product X. The producer/distributor/vendor finds that Product X was purchased fraudulently.

Can the producer/distributor/vendor take Product X back? What if Product X is consumable and has been used up by Buyer B, what recourse is there then?
Is it reasonable for the producer/distributor/vendor
to assume tha Fraudster A and Buyer B are accomplices? And if so arent they within their rights to refuse to do any more busoness with Fraudster A and Buyer B
What is the role that the CC company plays here? Should there be an investigation.
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