AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam
Jun 5, 2019, 3:21 pm
#166
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Is the contract between AC and her? Not clear that is the case.
She paid Capt Cool money for a ticket at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.
We also don't know how this Capt Cool purchased the ticket, did he do it through a travel agency or directly on the AC website? Did the payment page ask for the name and address of the credit card owner separately from the passenger name?
Capt Cool purchased the ticket from AC at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.
She is not pretending to be an agent for Air Canada, this Captain Cool person is. If I was AC I would be more concerned about that. Given AC flies into China, they can probably follow up in that country with their local legal council or staff on the group. Belarus may be a bit more difficult.
She paid Capt Cool money for a ticket at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.
We also don't know how this Capt Cool purchased the ticket, did he do it through a travel agency or directly on the AC website? Did the payment page ask for the name and address of the credit card owner separately from the passenger name?
Capt Cool purchased the ticket from AC at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.
She is not pretending to be an agent for Air Canada, this Captain Cool person is. If I was AC I would be more concerned about that. Given AC flies into China, they can probably follow up in that country with their local legal council or staff on the group. Belarus may be a bit more difficult.
All of that is irrelevant. A ticket is a contract between the ticket holder and the airline. TAs act as agents of the airlines. They issue tickets as the airline representative. She may have dealt/contracted Apt Cool to work on this for her, but ultimately the ticket is a deal between the airline and the passenger. As far as the relationship is with Capt Cool, the airline is not involved. Even if he dealt with booking the ticket, he merely acted on behalf of the passenger. He did not purchase the ticket. The passenger does.
Jun 5, 2019, 3:23 pm
#167
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Wrong. The CTA does not deal with contractual issues, merely with rules as per the tariffs. And she has no leg to stand on. Paying for a ticket with a stolen credit card cannot be justified, even if out of stupidity or wishful thinking.
Jun 5, 2019, 3:26 pm
#168
Join Date: Apr 2002
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All of that is irrelevant. A ticket is a contract between the ticket holder and the airline. TAs act as agents of the airlines. They issue tickets as the airline representative. She may have dealt/contracted Apt Cool to work on this for her, but ultimately the ticket is a deal between the airline and the passenger. As far as the relationship is with Capt Cool, the airline is not involved. Even if he dealt with booking the ticket, he merely acted on behalf of the passenger. He did not purchase the ticket. The passenger does.
If someone purchases a ticket from a TA, or is given a ticket by a friend, family member, etc., is it really reasonable to expect the traveler to do extensive due diligence on whether or not a legitimate relationship exists between such, and AC? Especially if, when verified with AC, the ticket itself is a confirmed reservation.
If I called up AC and asked them, "is ABC Travel Inc. paying its bills", would I get a response from AC other than "that's none of your business"?
Wrong. The CTA does not deal with contractual issues, merely with rules as per the tariffs. And she has no leg to stand on. Paying for a ticket with a stolen credit card cannot be justified, even if out of stupidity or wishful thinking.
The travel rendered in the past and allegedly not paid for is a contractual issue. Future travel is a tariff issue. I believe she has a solid case because she is being denied future paid travel, which is well within the statutory authority of the CTA to rule upon.
Jun 5, 2019, 4:05 pm
#169
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Eventually she was stopped. Additionally, Ann is likely not part of her official names, and her transliterated official name likely would hit quite a few matches, given the way Chinese names work. Plus, if the fraudster is half as smart as he should be there should be no other identifiers. Passport number might be the only one, assuming she did not change in the meantime. Plus these are not needed or recorded for domestic trips. Best possibility would be to catch her on the second overseas trip; which may be what happened, or maybe the third?
Jun 5, 2019, 4:06 pm
#170
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Jun 5, 2019, 4:13 pm
#171
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Your wrong. If CTA has no legal requirements to look at this issue then what is the arbitrator looking at. Obviously to see if AC is allowed to ban her. If AC is not allowed to ban her, then she can continue to fly on AC regardless if she pays back or not the 18k AC is asking. Afterwards, if AC wants to continue to pursue the 18k they would go through a court which will decide if they have legal grounds.
Jun 5, 2019, 4:15 pm
#172
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The airline implicitly represented to her that the reservation was paid and in order when she was allowed to fly.
If someone purchases a ticket from a TA, or is given a ticket by a friend, family member, etc., is it really reasonable to expect the traveler to do extensive due diligence on whether or not a legitimate relationship exists between such, and AC? Especially if, when verified with AC, the ticket itself is a confirmed reservation.
If I called up AC and asked them, "is ABC Travel Inc. paying its bills", would I get a response from AC other than "that's none of your business"?
If someone purchases a ticket from a TA, or is given a ticket by a friend, family member, etc., is it really reasonable to expect the traveler to do extensive due diligence on whether or not a legitimate relationship exists between such, and AC? Especially if, when verified with AC, the ticket itself is a confirmed reservation.
If I called up AC and asked them, "is ABC Travel Inc. paying its bills", would I get a response from AC other than "that's none of your business"?
None of which contradicts what I wrote.
The travel rendered in the past and allegedly not paid for is a contractual issue. Future travel is a tariff issue. I believe she has a solid case because she is being denied future paid travel, which is well within the statutory authority of the CTA to rule upon.
If indeed that is the only thing that's she is arguing about, and if there is nothing in the tariffs about passengers not paying past bills or obtaining tickets fraudulently, perhaps. Even then, would the CTA condone not paying one's bills? They might decide that as soon as the bills are paid she will be allowed to fly.
Jun 5, 2019, 5:40 pm
#173
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None of which contradicts what I wrote.If indeed that is the only thing that's she is arguing about, and if there is nothing in the tariffs about passengers not paying past bills or obtaining tickets fraudulently, perhaps. Even then, would the CTA condone not paying one's bills? They might decide that as soon as the bills are paid she will be allowed to fly.
Nobody denies that AC was deprived of its property and suffered a loss. The real question is whether its appropriate to deny future service to an individual whose hands are, by most available evidence, clean. Or whether they should suck it up and just accept that such is the cost of assuming the liability of dealing with an imperfect payment system that allows for transactions to be reversed. I doubt she, personally, will ever make the mistake again. AC has probably destroyed at least $18k of goodwill amongst a certain ethnic community just by letting this be plastered all over the media.
Jun 5, 2019, 5:57 pm
#174
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Most of the comments I see on wechat are supportive of ACs actions and criticizes Qians try to portrait herself as poor while flying business class.
Jun 5, 2019, 6:25 pm
#176
Join Date: May 2014
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I don’t believe there were allegations that she was disruptive to crew or passengers...that was either her lawyer or the passenger rights guy using that as an example of a legit reason for an airline to ban a passenger from future service.
Jun 5, 2019, 6:56 pm
#177
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AC accepts all sorts of passengers, including, but not limited to, murderers, rapists, and fraud artists. Whose tickets are legitimately paid (by the RCMP, by the CSC,IRB, etc.). Who may have even committed crime against AC in the past.
Nobody denies that AC was deprived of its property and suffered a loss. The real question is whether its appropriate to deny future service to an individual whose hands are, by most available evidence, clean. Or whether they should suck it up and just accept that such is the cost of assuming the liability of dealing with an imperfect payment system that allows for transactions to be reversed. I doubt she, personally, will ever make the mistake again. AC has probably destroyed at least $18k of goodwill amongst a certain ethnic community just by letting this be plastered all over the media.
Nobody denies that AC was deprived of its property and suffered a loss. The real question is whether its appropriate to deny future service to an individual whose hands are, by most available evidence, clean. Or whether they should suck it up and just accept that such is the cost of assuming the liability of dealing with an imperfect payment system that allows for transactions to be reversed. I doubt she, personally, will ever make the mistake again. AC has probably destroyed at least $18k of goodwill amongst a certain ethnic community just by letting this be plastered all over the media.
I don't think buying a ticket with a fraudulent CC number is "by most available evidence, clean." Innocent, stupid, maybe. But from AC's perspective she fraudulently bought a ticket. Captain Cool does not exist, period.
Jun 5, 2019, 9:20 pm
#178
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 306
I don't think she personally perpetrated this credit card fraud, but I think it's highly plausible she knew from day one the tickets were not legitimately obtained and did not care because she was sitting in J without paying J prices and getting away with it.
We know she's an international student, mostly likely from Shanghai, lived in Canada for two years, has a late model iPhone and spent $5800 in travel. Most people cannot afford that lifestyle. yet she is claiming she was lured by cheap tickets, as if she was trying to find the cheapest way to get from A to B. China is very technologically advanced, yes they have a walled off internet, but she's lived here for at least two years so she knows where to look for legitimate tickets and how much they normally cost.
If she wanted the cheapest way to get from A to B, she overpaid. Flights to Shanghai can be purchased for $600ish on a regular basis, even for last minute bookings. If you combine that with the most expensive last minute booking from Toronto to Vancouver, she would have paid well less than $5800. Based on this, I don't buy that fact she was lured into this scam because she wanted the cheapest way to visit her family.
Jun 5, 2019, 10:07 pm
#179
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Agreed.
I don't think she personally perpetrated this credit card fraud, but I think it's highly plausible she knew from day one the tickets were not legitimately obtained and did not care because she was sitting in J without paying J prices and getting away with it.
We know she's an international student, mostly likely from Shanghai, lived in Canada for two years, has a late model iPhone and spent $5800 in travel. Most people cannot afford that lifestyle. yet she is claiming she was lured by cheap tickets, as if she was trying to find the cheapest way to get from A to B. China is very technologically advanced, yes they have a walled off internet, but she's lived here for at least two years so she knows where to look for legitimate tickets and how much they normally cost.
If she wanted the cheapest way to get from A to B, she overpaid. Flights to Shanghai can be purchased for $600ish on a regular basis, even for last minute bookings. If you combine that with the most expensive last minute booking from Toronto to Vancouver, she would have paid well less than $5800. Based on this, I don't buy that fact she was lured into this scam because she wanted the cheapest way to visit her family.
I don't think she personally perpetrated this credit card fraud, but I think it's highly plausible she knew from day one the tickets were not legitimately obtained and did not care because she was sitting in J without paying J prices and getting away with it.
We know she's an international student, mostly likely from Shanghai, lived in Canada for two years, has a late model iPhone and spent $5800 in travel. Most people cannot afford that lifestyle. yet she is claiming she was lured by cheap tickets, as if she was trying to find the cheapest way to get from A to B. China is very technologically advanced, yes they have a walled off internet, but she's lived here for at least two years so she knows where to look for legitimate tickets and how much they normally cost.
If she wanted the cheapest way to get from A to B, she overpaid. Flights to Shanghai can be purchased for $600ish on a regular basis, even for last minute bookings. If you combine that with the most expensive last minute booking from Toronto to Vancouver, she would have paid well less than $5800. Based on this, I don't buy that fact she was lured into this scam because she wanted the cheapest way to visit her family.
Jun 5, 2019, 10:48 pm
#180
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$5800 was for four flights, at least one of which was to Vancouver and at least one to China. Lowest J price that I've seen on AC to Asia was $3000 CAD to TPE earlier this year. Typical lowest J to China cost about $4000 CAD if you book well in advance. Usually these scammers target those who book last minute as chances of credit card company finding out and ticket is canceled is lower.
Last edited by m.y; Jun 5, 2019 at 11:22 pm