Another new route: Announcing YYZ-DXB
Apr 12, 2015, 6:26 am
#316
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,725
Geographical position. They have excellent access to the Indian subcontinent/South East Asia/Australia.
I think they have 9 or 10 points in India alone plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka. The EU carriers cant operate outside of India (BA has a seasonal LGW-CMB flight). In effect, they're the de facto airline of South Asia, with one stop coverage of just about everything west of the subcontinent - and (ironically) even a transit point to India from Pakistan and Afghanistan. From CPG, they can tap into South East Asia and Oceania.
They're a preferred choice because of superior service. CPG-FRA-BKK vs CPG-DXB-BKK in Y... significant difference in product. As anyone who has flown from N. America or the EU to India over the past two decades will point out, EK has been a boon for the region. 10 years ago, the EU carriers plied the route with rust buckets with no personal IFE etc. Fares were high, service poor, and a misconnect with an India passport meant a night in the terminal at LHR, FRA, CDG etc.
Things have improved somewhat since then; India was one of the first recipients of LH's 748s. LH introduced a whole India-specific product and put its staff through cultural training. BA did the same thing.
http://www.airlinetrends.com/2011/10...mirates-india/
All of that is direct fallout from EK. More frequency to/from India. Better product. Better fares. Where India was once an afterthought for EU carriers like LH, it now gets top of the line products, which is interesting given the narrative of India as a low yield country. Guess that's the benefit of having 'entitled' and demanding pax. Airlines have no choice but to up their standard if they want to be taken seriously. Contrast that with markets like Canada, where pax congratulate themselves on understanding airlines' predicaments - and end up paying more and more for less. Havent crunched the numbers, but won't be surprised if a 1-stop Y to the EU ex-Canada involving Rouge costs around the same as a 1-stop Y to India ex-Canada on mainline products.
EK's own reliance on being the de facto carrier of South Asia (in the context of the EU and N.America) raises questions about YYZ-DXB. Why didn't AC just go all in for DEL instead? I'm not second guessing AC, but the U.S. ties to the UAE have a significant government aspect, and that lot is required by law to 'buy American'.
I think they have 9 or 10 points in India alone plus Pakistan, Sri Lanka. The EU carriers cant operate outside of India (BA has a seasonal LGW-CMB flight). In effect, they're the de facto airline of South Asia, with one stop coverage of just about everything west of the subcontinent - and (ironically) even a transit point to India from Pakistan and Afghanistan. From CPG, they can tap into South East Asia and Oceania.
They're a preferred choice because of superior service. CPG-FRA-BKK vs CPG-DXB-BKK in Y... significant difference in product. As anyone who has flown from N. America or the EU to India over the past two decades will point out, EK has been a boon for the region. 10 years ago, the EU carriers plied the route with rust buckets with no personal IFE etc. Fares were high, service poor, and a misconnect with an India passport meant a night in the terminal at LHR, FRA, CDG etc.
Things have improved somewhat since then; India was one of the first recipients of LH's 748s. LH introduced a whole India-specific product and put its staff through cultural training. BA did the same thing.
http://www.airlinetrends.com/2011/10...mirates-india/
All of that is direct fallout from EK. More frequency to/from India. Better product. Better fares. Where India was once an afterthought for EU carriers like LH, it now gets top of the line products, which is interesting given the narrative of India as a low yield country. Guess that's the benefit of having 'entitled' and demanding pax. Airlines have no choice but to up their standard if they want to be taken seriously. Contrast that with markets like Canada, where pax congratulate themselves on understanding airlines' predicaments - and end up paying more and more for less. Havent crunched the numbers, but won't be surprised if a 1-stop Y to the EU ex-Canada involving Rouge costs around the same as a 1-stop Y to India ex-Canada on mainline products.
EK's own reliance on being the de facto carrier of South Asia (in the context of the EU and N.America) raises questions about YYZ-DXB. Why didn't AC just go all in for DEL instead? I'm not second guessing AC, but the U.S. ties to the UAE have a significant government aspect, and that lot is required by law to 'buy American'.
Could you elaborate on the 'going all-in' for DEL? They've announced that route already. What do you mean by 'all-in'?
Apr 12, 2015, 6:30 am
#317
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,432
EK
Havent crunched the numbers, but won't be surprised if a 1-stop Y to the EU ex-Canada involving Rouge costs around the same as a 1-stop Y to India ex-Canada on mainline products.
True and recently mainline fares to India ex YYZ have been cheaper than parts of EU. Recent Y fares were as low as $910-$950 from airlines incl TK,9W,EY.
EK recent seat sale to DEL in J was $4100.
True and recently mainline fares to India ex YYZ have been cheaper than parts of EU. Recent Y fares were as low as $910-$950 from airlines incl TK,9W,EY.
EK recent seat sale to DEL in J was $4100.
Apr 12, 2015, 6:32 am
#318
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,432
I understand that, and agree with it for the most part. I'm still gobsmacked that CPG is getting a high density A380. It shows its not a premium route dollar wise. I still wonder if they don't add some sub continent migrant workers from DXB on the plane just to boost their numbers. But I guess I am underestimating the size of the market.
Could you elaborate on the 'going all-in' for DEL? They've announced that route already. What do you mean by 'all-in'?
Could you elaborate on the 'going all-in' for DEL? They've announced that route already. What do you mean by 'all-in'?
Apr 12, 2015, 7:15 am
#319
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,725
So are you saying you this AC should have opened YYZ-DEL & YYZ-BOM instead of YYZ-DXB?
Interesting. I would have thought the 4 weekly introduction to be a more prudent approach. I would assume, as more 787s enter the fleet that BOM is definitely a possibility.
I am not privy to the actual passenger numbers that AC has access to before making these decisions. I do find the DXB flight to be a little...bold, given the competition and the market size. Maybe its just a question of getting your foot into the door.
Apr 12, 2015, 7:19 am
#320
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
I understand that, and agree with it for the most part. I'm still gobsmacked that CPG is getting a high density A380. It shows its not a premium route dollar wise. I still wonder if they don't add some sub continent migrant workers from DXB on the plane just to boost their numbers. But I guess I am underestimating the size of the market.
Could you elaborate on the 'going all-in' for DEL? They've announced that route already. What do you mean by 'all-in'?
Could you elaborate on the 'going all-in' for DEL? They've announced that route already. What do you mean by 'all-in'?
Re: CPH - oddly enough, PIA flies there too, so there must be a Pakistani market of sorts. Throw in one stop connectivity to the likes of MLE and HKT and there's something of a market to work with. They certainly like to fly a lot; despite a population of a shade under 2 million, Copenhagen airport is ay 25 million pax. Contrast that to larger cities like YVR.
Apr 12, 2015, 7:23 am
#321
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
Havent crunched the numbers, but won't be surprised if a 1-stop Y to the EU ex-Canada involving Rouge costs around the same as a 1-stop Y to India ex-Canada on mainline products.
True and recently mainline fares to India ex YYZ have been cheaper than parts of EU. Recent Y fares were as low as $910-$950 from airlines incl TK,9W,EY.
EK recent seat sale to DEL in J was $4100.
True and recently mainline fares to India ex YYZ have been cheaper than parts of EU. Recent Y fares were as low as $910-$950 from airlines incl TK,9W,EY.
EK recent seat sale to DEL in J was $4100.
Apr 12, 2015, 7:36 am
#322
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,725
Re: DEL - AC is doing 4 weekly. 'All in' = daily / 7 weekly. Right now it's 4 weekly DEL and 3 weekly DXB.
Re: CPH - oddly enough, PIA flies there too, so there must be a Pakistani market of sorts. Throw in one stop connectivity to the likes of MLE and HKT and there's something of a market to work with. They certainly like to fly a lot; despite a population of a shade under 2 million, Copenhagen airport is ay 25 million pax. Contrast that to larger cities like YVR.
Re: CPH - oddly enough, PIA flies there too, so there must be a Pakistani market of sorts. Throw in one stop connectivity to the likes of MLE and HKT and there's something of a market to work with. They certainly like to fly a lot; despite a population of a shade under 2 million, Copenhagen airport is ay 25 million pax. Contrast that to larger cities like YVR.
I'm not sure if the HD A380 is indicative of the traffic, or the lack of high yield. Also curious, given the distance, that they don't run 2 flights 777/330 combo over 1 380.
Like I said, if they were a retail store, I'd start wondering if they are laundering money....
Apr 12, 2015, 7:48 am
#323
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,432
I was under the impression it was 4 times weekly. 3 with 787-9 and 1 with 787-8.
So are you saying you this AC should have opened YYZ-DEL & YYZ-BOM instead of YYZ-DXB?
Interesting. I would have thought the 4 weekly introduction to be a more prudent approach. I would assume, as more 787s enter the fleet that BOM is definitely a possibility.
I am not privy to the actual passenger numbers that AC has access to before making these decisions. I do find the DXB flight to be a little...bold, given the competition and the market size. Maybe its just a question of getting your foot into the door.
So are you saying you this AC should have opened YYZ-DEL & YYZ-BOM instead of YYZ-DXB?
Interesting. I would have thought the 4 weekly introduction to be a more prudent approach. I would assume, as more 787s enter the fleet that BOM is definitely a possibility.
I am not privy to the actual passenger numbers that AC has access to before making these decisions. I do find the DXB flight to be a little...bold, given the competition and the market size. Maybe its just a question of getting your foot into the door.
Apr 12, 2015, 7:50 am
#324
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
There is probably a good portion of passengers from Malo/Southern Sweeden too.
I'm not sure if the HD A380 is indicative of the traffic, or the lack of high yield. Also curious, given the distance, that they don't run 2 flights 777/330 combo over 1 380.
Like I said, if they were a retail store, I'd start wondering if they are laundering money....
I'm not sure if the HD A380 is indicative of the traffic, or the lack of high yield. Also curious, given the distance, that they don't run 2 flights 777/330 combo over 1 380.
Like I said, if they were a retail store, I'd start wondering if they are laundering money....
I don't understand the money laundering argument. There are better ways to launder money than by subsidizing low yield Danes travel to DXB etc. what would this laundering option achieve? Other than to bleed money? Unless of course the route is making them even more money, which answers your question.
What is your rationale for making the claim of/ drawing the comparison to money laundering?
Apr 12, 2015, 8:03 am
#325
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,374
As an aside, flew to DXB at easter, <C$550 RT, AC K fare.
Out of that money, they had to pay EK for LHR-DXB, and GF/BA for DXB-BAH-LHR.
How much do you think AC made on my TATLs YYZ-LHR-YYZ, after splitting the income with the other carriers, maybe $100 income each eay?
On my LHR-YYZ, there was at least 3 dozen people connecting from AI (had those Indian handluggage stamped tags) - again how much did AC make on their portion?
So is AC money laundering, filling planes at $100 a pop for TATL?
Apr 12, 2015, 8:55 am
#326
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
Everything is 'possible' when one adopts the 'offering all possible explanations' approach. No need to provide any rationale or evidence.
How much is YYZ-DXB going for these days? They're going to start making excellent mileage runs soon. Pay as much as EU flights; get 50-100% more miles.
Those TATL JVs have really done a number on EU flights.
How much is YYZ-DXB going for these days? They're going to start making excellent mileage runs soon. Pay as much as EU flights; get 50-100% more miles.
Those TATL JVs have really done a number on EU flights.
Apr 12, 2015, 9:09 am
#327
Suspended
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Curiosity led me wandering over to see fares
(I'm sure you'll all find lower, but this was a quick search):
eg
April 28 DL via ATL-DXB is $837
There are at least 5 other combos slightly higher in this range
Took a peek at YYZ-DXB for a date in May
Y $1,351
J $6,998
F $13,735
(I'm sure you'll all find lower, but this was a quick search):
eg
April 28 DL via ATL-DXB is $837
There are at least 5 other combos slightly higher in this range
Took a peek at YYZ-DXB for a date in May
Y $1,351
J $6,998
F $13,735
Apr 12, 2015, 9:37 am
#328
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,725
Clarification on the money laundering comment
I am not accusing anyone of anything.
Its the impression I get when I see a big new business set up, with very little customers that frequent it but is top notch and seems to continue operating despite no one frequenting that business.
And I am not inferring that EK does not have many passengers or is laundering money. Its just that a daily 612 passenger at CPG seems like serious overkill to me.
And I suddenly got the image of these gyms that opened in my city. 3 brand spanking new buildings with top of the line equipment and empty parking lots. Everyone I know goes to the gym (except me) and no one goes to those.
So that is what I was referring to.
Bad analogy, but barring their actually be that much traffic, I fail to explain this move.
Its the impression I get when I see a big new business set up, with very little customers that frequent it but is top notch and seems to continue operating despite no one frequenting that business.
And I am not inferring that EK does not have many passengers or is laundering money. Its just that a daily 612 passenger at CPG seems like serious overkill to me.
And I suddenly got the image of these gyms that opened in my city. 3 brand spanking new buildings with top of the line equipment and empty parking lots. Everyone I know goes to the gym (except me) and no one goes to those.
So that is what I was referring to.
Bad analogy, but barring their actually be that much traffic, I fail to explain this move.
Last edited by PLeblond; Apr 12, 2015 at 10:18 am
Apr 12, 2015, 10:25 am
#329
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
I am not accusing anyone of anything.
Its the impression I get when I see a big new business set up, with very little customers that frequent it but is top notch and seems to continue operating despite no one frequenting that business.
And I am not inferring that EK does not have many passengers or is landing money. Its just that a daily 612 passenger at CPG seems like serious overkill to me.
And I suddenly got the image of these gyms that opened in my city. 3 brand spanking new buildings with top of the line equipment and empty parking lots. Everyone I know goes to the gym (except me) and no one goes to those.
So that is what I was referring to.
Bad analogy, but barrign their actually be that much traffic, I fail to explain this move.
Its the impression I get when I see a big new business set up, with very little customers that frequent it but is top notch and seems to continue operating despite no one frequenting that business.
And I am not inferring that EK does not have many passengers or is landing money. Its just that a daily 612 passenger at CPG seems like serious overkill to me.
And I suddenly got the image of these gyms that opened in my city. 3 brand spanking new buildings with top of the line equipment and empty parking lots. Everyone I know goes to the gym (except me) and no one goes to those.
So that is what I was referring to.
Bad analogy, but barrign their actually be that much traffic, I fail to explain this move.
A quick search of CPH traffic stats, available even on Wikipedia, reveals that 257,019 pax (sixth freedom or otherwise) flew to/through DXB from CPH in 2014.
That amounts to 704 passengers per day.
EK's highest density 77W can carry 427 pax per day.
427 pax per day = 155,855 pax per year. That's 100,000 pax who cannot physically go to DXB on EK metal. EK is now targeting more of them. Even at 615 seats per day, it's going to fall short of the total route traffic last year.
Is that a better explanation than money laundering? It was easily available all along.
Apr 12, 2015, 11:33 am
#330
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,725
Money laundering has serious negative implications; throwing it about as an 'explanation' purely on the grounds that one can't be bothered to actually look into it, choosing instead to draw whatever conclusions one wishes to draw, is a very questionable approach.
A quick search of CPH traffic stats, available even on Wikipedia, reveals that 257,019 pax (sixth freedom or otherwise) flew to/through DXB from CPH in 2014.
That amounts to 704 passengers per day.
EK's highest density 77W can carry 427 pax per day.
427 pax per day = 155,855 pax per year. That's 100,000 pax who cannot physically go to DXB on EK metal. EK is now targeting more of them. Even at 615 seats per day, it's going to fall short of the total route traffic last year.
Is that a better explanation than money laundering? It was easily available all along.
A quick search of CPH traffic stats, available even on Wikipedia, reveals that 257,019 pax (sixth freedom or otherwise) flew to/through DXB from CPH in 2014.
That amounts to 704 passengers per day.
EK's highest density 77W can carry 427 pax per day.
427 pax per day = 155,855 pax per year. That's 100,000 pax who cannot physically go to DXB on EK metal. EK is now targeting more of them. Even at 615 seats per day, it's going to fall short of the total route traffic last year.
Is that a better explanation than money laundering? It was easily available all along.
And again, I wasn't accusing them (or anybody) of money laundering. I understand the example is probably a little to obscure (or non linear) to easily wrap one's head around it. I'll retract it if that makes everyone more comfortable.