AC says Elites "cheapen" their business class
Oct 27, 2014, 3:57 pm
#181
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Amazing so many people on this board harp about AC employees sitting in J using a company perk, such as a B1. It is almost like no one here has any such perks at their given place of employment. Bringing AC employee travel benefits into this discussion has no bearing on the devaluation of the FFP.
I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
From the pure FF standpoint, putting an employee in J is pure negative to the experience.
1. The seat could go to an upgrade (fine, you've said you don't like that)
2. The seat could go empty, giving someone on a paid business fare a better flying experience (this applies equally well to upgrades)
You want to know what's less likely to make me pay for J than thinking I can get it on an upgrade? Filling the cabin with employees.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:00 pm
#182
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I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:01 pm
#183
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Have you read the title of this thread? If Elites who pay a reasonable Flex fare, then eUp to J, cheapen J, then what do employees who don't pay a reasonable Flex fare do?
I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Exactly.
From the pure FF standpoint, putting an employee in J is pure negative to the experience.
1. The seat could go to an upgrade (fine, you've said you don't like that)
2. The seat could go empty, giving someone on a paid business fare a better flying experience (this applies equally well to upgrades)
You want to know what's less likely to make me pay for J than thinking I can get it on an upgrade? Filling the cabin with employees.
I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Exactly.
From the pure FF standpoint, putting an employee in J is pure negative to the experience.
1. The seat could go to an upgrade (fine, you've said you don't like that)
2. The seat could go empty, giving someone on a paid business fare a better flying experience (this applies equally well to upgrades)
You want to know what's less likely to make me pay for J than thinking I can get it on an upgrade? Filling the cabin with employees.
Employee and buddy passes are fair game, but of course in the context now they are just as much cheapening the fully paid J experience as upgrades, or for that matter discounted J fares, which used to be kind of taboo a few years ago.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:26 pm
#184
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I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:42 pm
#185
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What we are witnessing is price discrimination gone amok, with AC desperately trying to avoid channel conflict and keep everyone in 'their' segment groups, thus highly discouraging everyone from peering over the side to see what the other segment is getting/doing.
In the pre/early internet days this was easily achieved with the company having high asymmetrical balances of information.The internet, higher levels of education, and a Canadian culture that is more engaged in online communication/research, has put an end to that. It just goes to show how widespread the legacy top down culture at AC is alive and well.
In the pre/early internet days this was easily achieved with the company having high asymmetrical balances of information.The internet, higher levels of education, and a Canadian culture that is more engaged in online communication/research, has put an end to that. It just goes to show how widespread the legacy top down culture at AC is alive and well.
Oct 27, 2014, 4:58 pm
#186
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Have you read the title of this thread? If Elites who pay a reasonable Flex fare, then eUp to J, cheapen J, then what do employees who don't pay a reasonable Flex fare do?
I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Exactly.
From the pure FF standpoint, putting an employee in J is pure negative to the experience.
1. The seat could go to an upgrade (fine, you've said you don't like that)
2. The seat could go empty, giving someone on a paid business fare a better flying experience (this applies equally well to upgrades)
You want to know what's less likely to make me pay for J than thinking I can get it on an upgrade? Filling the cabin with employees.
I have no issues with employees getting the seats after eUps, which is how I believe it works now (if you want to talk about priority, that's another discussion). However, I have issues with them telling us we can't sit there "for free" anymore, meanwhile putting more employees there, earning far less revenue than a Flex/Latitude fare.
Exactly.
From the pure FF standpoint, putting an employee in J is pure negative to the experience.
1. The seat could go to an upgrade (fine, you've said you don't like that)
2. The seat could go empty, giving someone on a paid business fare a better flying experience (this applies equally well to upgrades)
You want to know what's less likely to make me pay for J than thinking I can get it on an upgrade? Filling the cabin with employees.
Employees have limited space available J passes per year, and except for high management and perhaps senior Captains I doubt AC employees are the demographic who would/even could be purchasing J anyway. Giving limited-allotment space available J as part of an employee's compensation package can't be hurting AC's bottom line as those people surely wouldn't be buying P/Z/D/C/J anyways.
The only absolute cull going on is that of total J seats. 321s, 787s, and especially whenever 333s get retired and replaced by 788s (333s and 788s seem to be scheduled interchangeably on CPH/ZRH... I find that interesting/telling). I think AC realizes they may not convince many of us to buy J by reducing eUps, but they will invest in those seats left after retrofit to give a better experience to the lucky few upgraders and mostly paid biz cabin, and squeeze the Y cabin to fit 20% more tango pax to make up for the lost revenue of Flex purchasers.
Oct 27, 2014, 5:27 pm
#187
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I would think that this also applies to many many of the eupgraders as well so in theory we aren't hurting their bottom line either. The point has been made elsewhere that by paying the tango-flex-latitude delta we are actually increasing the bottom line
Oct 27, 2014, 5:31 pm
#188
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I think it has been made clear that by 'cheapen' they were referring to the likelihood of purchasing a seat in the J cabin itself vs Y - people are less likely to pay for something they can get for free (status and Flex fares aren't free, but hopefully you get the point). Not that SEs/Es are so socially unacceptable that their presence causes those around them to have a lesser experience.
Employees have limited space available J passes per year, and except for high management and perhaps senior Captains I doubt AC employees are the demographic who would/even could be purchasing J anyway. Giving limited-allotment space available J as part of an employee's compensation package can't be hurting AC's bottom line as those people surely wouldn't be buying P/Z/D/C/J anyways.
The only absolute cull going on is that of total J seats. 321s, 787s, and especially whenever 333s get retired and replaced by 788s (333s and 788s seem to be scheduled interchangeably on CPH/ZRH... I find that interesting/telling). I think AC realizes they may not convince many of us to buy J by reducing eUps, but they will invest in those seats left after retrofit to give a better experience to the lucky few upgraders and mostly paid biz cabin, and squeeze the Y cabin to fit 20% more tango pax to make up for the lost revenue of Flex purchasers.
Employees have limited space available J passes per year, and except for high management and perhaps senior Captains I doubt AC employees are the demographic who would/even could be purchasing J anyway. Giving limited-allotment space available J as part of an employee's compensation package can't be hurting AC's bottom line as those people surely wouldn't be buying P/Z/D/C/J anyways.
The only absolute cull going on is that of total J seats. 321s, 787s, and especially whenever 333s get retired and replaced by 788s (333s and 788s seem to be scheduled interchangeably on CPH/ZRH... I find that interesting/telling). I think AC realizes they may not convince many of us to buy J by reducing eUps, but they will invest in those seats left after retrofit to give a better experience to the lucky few upgraders and mostly paid biz cabin, and squeeze the Y cabin to fit 20% more tango pax to make up for the lost revenue of Flex purchasers.
Now, whether or not that strategy will work, and result in more revenue for AC, is a different question. I think it won't, I think they will lose more revenue from disenfranchised high volume FF's than they will be able to offset with tango pax - but their plan is not hard to understand.
Oct 27, 2014, 5:45 pm
#189
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I agree with Winnipegrev. Over the weekend there was a lot of passion, which unfortunately also led to some vitriol. However, now that hopefully people have calmed down, it is time to set the record straight on the unfortunate and inaccurate "AC thinks upgraders cheapen J class" meme which appears to have partially taken hold, and is being propagated in this thread.
The actual quote the OP is referring to is as follows:
The OP of this thread entitled it "AC says Elites "cheapen" their business class" and wrote
It is absolutely clear in context that Ben is referring to the product (J) being cheapened by routinely being available at a significant discount, namely e.g. Flex Y + a couple of credits. While one can debate whether this is accurate or not, it is not at all unusual for brands seeking a "premium" positioning to worry about this, including the use of such language; indeed, it is often this thinking which drives them to set a minimum advertised price for their distributors. There is no support whatsoever for the OP's and others' misinterpretation that AC would feel the J experience is cheapened for those in it by the presence, demeanour, or behaviour of individuals who have gained admission via an upgrade.
Now that we are a few days away from the strongest emotions, perhaps the OP (Allvest) could recognize that he overreacted in the heat of passion, and refactor the title of the thread and initial posting. Then perhaps Ben could express regret at using a phrasing which seems to have inflamed passions rather than helped people understand his point. And we could go back to regularly scheduled programming.
The actual quote the OP is referring to is as follows:
Look, I won't deny the discrete cost of moving somebody from Y to an empty J seat at boarding 45 mins before departure isn't huge, but it does two things:
1) It cheapens the J product - I will again reference our European and Asian competitors who have very tight access policies to their premium cabins, and point out how highly valued they are, especially compared to our American competition - ever wonder why F fares are so cheap on US carriers?
2) It sets an expectation. If there's an expectation that for >50% of the time you can sit there without paying for it, why would you ever be incentivised to do so?
1) It cheapens the J product - I will again reference our European and Asian competitors who have very tight access policies to their premium cabins, and point out how highly valued they are, especially compared to our American competition - ever wonder why F fares are so cheap on US carriers?
2) It sets an expectation. If there's an expectation that for >50% of the time you can sit there without paying for it, why would you ever be incentivised to do so?
I will refrain from adding too much commentary but would like a) people to know it's been said and b) ask how you frequent fliers making use of your E-ups feel about being told that when you do you in fact cheapen AC's product? [...]
In my case it literally makes me feel dirty. Combined with "Ac is not a charity" it makes me feel sort of like I am knocking on a homeless shelter door whenever I upgrade now.
In my case it literally makes me feel dirty. Combined with "Ac is not a charity" it makes me feel sort of like I am knocking on a homeless shelter door whenever I upgrade now.
Now that we are a few days away from the strongest emotions, perhaps the OP (Allvest) could recognize that he overreacted in the heat of passion, and refactor the title of the thread and initial posting. Then perhaps Ben could express regret at using a phrasing which seems to have inflamed passions rather than helped people understand his point. And we could go back to regularly scheduled programming.
Oct 27, 2014, 5:47 pm
#190
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Now, whether or not that strategy will work, and result in more revenue for AC, is a different question. I think it won't, I think they will lose more revenue from disenfranchised high volume FF's than they will be able to offset with tango pax - but their plan is not hard to understand.
Oct 27, 2014, 6:05 pm
#191
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The funny thing for me is how a lot of people who do leave have a habit of hanging around this forum like crack addicts looking for their dealer.
Listen, it's business. I used to be loyal to Bell - for decades - but someone came along with better telecom offers. I switched. No hard feelings. It's not like they owed me anything for my loyalty. I got my service, I paid my bill. Service... payment. Airline gets me from point A to point B, sometimes someone other than myself is paying the fare, too. Service... payment.
I have never had anything bad to say about people who move their business to where they feel they will be better/best treated/respected. I also make more use than ever of fares that don't give me any points or benefits - because I pay for most of my own tickets and consider my after-tax cash retained to be the ultimate reward.
Brand loyalty, like life-time jobs, is a thing of the past. Just do what is in your own best interest without behaving like the proverbial outraged virgin. If AC or any other carrier cheapens the benefits, or raises fares, just make an objective choice. It gets tiring listening to some complaints from people who felt they were chained to AP like some kind of consumer Stockholm Syndrome and are only now being liberated. Just move on and don't have any regrets.
Listen, it's business. I used to be loyal to Bell - for decades - but someone came along with better telecom offers. I switched. No hard feelings. It's not like they owed me anything for my loyalty. I got my service, I paid my bill. Service... payment. Airline gets me from point A to point B, sometimes someone other than myself is paying the fare, too. Service... payment.
I have never had anything bad to say about people who move their business to where they feel they will be better/best treated/respected. I also make more use than ever of fares that don't give me any points or benefits - because I pay for most of my own tickets and consider my after-tax cash retained to be the ultimate reward.
Brand loyalty, like life-time jobs, is a thing of the past. Just do what is in your own best interest without behaving like the proverbial outraged virgin. If AC or any other carrier cheapens the benefits, or raises fares, just make an objective choice. It gets tiring listening to some complaints from people who felt they were chained to AP like some kind of consumer Stockholm Syndrome and are only now being liberated. Just move on and don't have any regrets.
Oct 27, 2014, 6:39 pm
#192
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canada
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We view this a little differently. When the marketplace is not willing to pay us for what it costs to produce our product/service then we need to adapt or die. eg TS is the market leader ahead of both AF and AC on YULCDG. For various reasons we were not able to earn high enough average fares across all cabins to justify the investment in additional aircraft to expand capacity. Up until recently TS were able to offer during the peak summer months up to 3 flights per day on this route vs our single trip. Yes in many cases we could charge a premium vs TS but the bulk of the market was fine with 16" 9 abreast seats A330 Y seats. We could have shrunk, pulled out or adapted. We chose to adapt and that is how we ended up with our 777HD. Our Y and PY are still superior to TS and our J is the only consistent lie-flat option on the route. With this change our volume went up 30pct profit drastically improved and we are now able to invest in the route and are adding a second frequency next summer. Even if I wanted to offer a more expensive product unfortunately the marketplace is not willing to pay for it. This is our reality.
I don't just spend time on FT to ask questions about boarding order, or carry-ons, or whatever the topic of the week is, but because also because I find the industry quite interesting. Little insights like the above both surprise me and give some better insight to how you make decisions.
I'm well aware AC needs to generate revenue to be sustainable (although, really it's survived this long without making $...), but there's only so much I'm able to contribute to that. Beyond the big strike items in the FF plan, I find it's often the little things that make me feel valued as a customer - someone noticing a status and saying thanks for flying with us, or the occasional free drink in the back, or a change that doesn't get charged, etc, etc.
One flight that's always stood out to me, was on a Dash-8 a few years back and the FA handed me a handwipe (I was reading the newspaper) and a small bottle of water. When I asked him why, he said he kept the wipes handy for newsprint, but he never drank the bottles of water from his crew meal but, kept them around to give to SEs (or whatever frequent flyers were on the plane). Have to say little staff interactions like that make a difference. In J, having a FA come by and say my name and ask what I'd like for dinner rather than just looking at me and saying chicken or beef makes a difference.
Anyway, bit of a tangent there, but I appreciate the bluntness, however, I wish crews/staff were perhaps a little less blunt sometimes, or further encouraged to recognize FFs - whether it be by the waiving of a fee, helping out with a problem, or even by just saying hello by name and thanks for flying so much with us.
So.. since we don't get any eUps any more..any chance you'll let us use them on AE tickets again?
Oct 27, 2014, 6:42 pm
#193
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This attitude about frequent flyers and super elites cheapening the J product comes from Air Canada execs drinking their own cool aid about being the best airline in North America. Being the best airline in North America is tantamount to being proud of standing first in a class of dunces. If Air Canada Execs really care about excellence then they should compare themselves to other airlines around the world. Are we not living in a global age?
It is also rather pathetic that this world class management team cannot secure a larger shareholder profit from a near monopoly. Is it really necessary to upset your best customers to make more profit. What's next? Are they going to compromise on aircraft maintenance?
Air Canada board ought to take a serious look at executive compensation if the geniuses in Montreal can't figure out how to improve the bottom line without upsetting their best customers.
It is also rather pathetic that this world class management team cannot secure a larger shareholder profit from a near monopoly. Is it really necessary to upset your best customers to make more profit. What's next? Are they going to compromise on aircraft maintenance?
Air Canada board ought to take a serious look at executive compensation if the geniuses in Montreal can't figure out how to improve the bottom line without upsetting their best customers.
Oct 27, 2014, 6:50 pm
#194
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I cant find the thread, but I have posted previously how I hate flying in J when its filled with cons (employees) both on and off duty. When they are all talking shop sharing their AC stories etc, ya that certainly cheapens the product.
Funny how so many SE have asked that we should automatically be upgraded when there are empty J seats! I guess that wont be happening lol
Funny how so many SE have asked that we should automatically be upgraded when there are empty J seats! I guess that wont be happening lol
Oct 27, 2014, 7:45 pm
#195
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As a non too frequent AC customer albeit one that flies only paid J/Z or award J when I do travel AC I don't find upgraded passengers to cheapen J class.* It's rare that I even know who has paid for their J seat and who has been upgraded.
*caveat: I do sometime feel cheated when I have paid for J/Z and I don't always get my meal choice knowing that an upgraded elite has perhaps "stolen" my selection. I also feel cheated when in a Y segment on a J award and upgrading elites take priority on getting a J seat that is otherwise unsold.
*caveat: I do sometime feel cheated when I have paid for J/Z and I don't always get my meal choice knowing that an upgraded elite has perhaps "stolen" my selection. I also feel cheated when in a Y segment on a J award and upgrading elites take priority on getting a J seat that is otherwise unsold.