May 5, 2014, 8:21 pm
Last edit by: Arcanum
Flights operated by Air Canada rouge
NOTE: Rouge Wifi information can be found here
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-c...l#post28448087
Dates in brackets indicate planned start of rouge service (either as a new route or replacing mainline service). ML placed before a date indicates the date that service is reverting to mainline.
All Airbus A319/A321 service is in the new Premium Rouge configuration with 2x2J seats. All other routes are Boeing 767-300ER aircraft in a 24J/258Y layout.
Airport codes in blue indicate that these routes are Boeing 767-300ER aircraft for all services.
Airport codes in red indicate that these routes are split between Boeing 767-300ER and Airbus services.
Airport codes in black indicate that these routes are Airbus aircraft for all services.
Routes are organized based on the established rouge bases of YYZ, YUL, YYC, and YVR
*Seasonal Summer Service
YYZ
Canada
YQT YQY YXX YLW YYG (02MAY-OCT) YDF YQB YQM (01MAY19) YFC (01JUL19)
USA
MCO TPA LAS FLL HNL SRQ RSW SAN PHX MIA PSP (14DEC16)
Mexico
CUN PVR SJD
Caribbean
KIN NAS LIR GND MBJ AZS CCC CUR HUX PUJ POP SKB SJO SXM LRM HOG SNU UVF VRA BGI (07JAN) POS (21DEC16)
Europe
ATH BCN EDI VCE MAN LIS PRG BUD GLA LGW
Central and South America
LIM BOG PTY
YUL
USA
LAS MCO FLL PBI TPA MIA
Mexico
CUN MEX PVR (18NOV16)
Caribbean
ZSA CCC HOG PUJ SNU PLS POP PAP NAS (17JAN) PTP
Europe
FCO ATH BCN NCE VCE
Central and South America
SJO (22DEC16)
Africa
CMN
YYC
Canada
YHZ* YHM (2016)
USA
LAS PHX (winter only - PHX AC Express in summer)
YVR
USA
LAS HNL OGG PHX PSP KOA SAN (02JUN)
Mexico
CUN PVR
Asia
KIX
Europe
DUB LGA KEF
What to Do If Your Flight Has Been Rouged According to the AC Rep "Air Canada Altitude": call AC Reservations, cancel and get a refund.
Air Canada rouge, a leisure airline
Dec 6, 2014, 5:18 am
#4036
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,531
Quotes
"In the long-haul sector pressure on prices is massive. Airlines like Emirates, Qatar Airways and Etihad are flooding the market with cheap economy class tickets, making it hard for Germany-based Lufthansa to compete, as it has higher costs than its competitors."
"Low-cost offshoots are the only way forward for many established traditional carriers if they want to attract price-conscious customers. "Our ticket prices are 40 percent below economy prices at our parent company," Wilson says.
But flying low-cost is also less comfortable and the flight times can be inconvenient."
"It is not what passengers in Asia are accustomed to, as airlines there are rightly renowned for their excellent service. "Customers here had no idea what to expect from a low-cost carrier - they thought they'd get free drinks and meals. The really had to adapt," Campbell Wilson, head of Scoot explains."
-----
This got me thinking about AC's Rouge, where as we know from this thread, there is a long debate about the costs being cheaper for AC but not the customer.
Very interesting article from Deutsche Welle
"Lufthansa to Operate Low-Fare, Long-Haul Eurowings Routes"
Note the strategy and the reference to how they deal with the wage cost.
It would be interesting to hear from you experts on how Eurowings or Scoot compare to Rouge as carrier brands as well as from pax pov.
http://www.dw.de/long-haul-on-the-ch...egy/a-18110397
"In the long-haul sector pressure on prices is massive. Airlines like Emirates, Qatar Airways and Etihad are flooding the market with cheap economy class tickets, making it hard for Germany-based Lufthansa to compete, as it has higher costs than its competitors."
"Low-cost offshoots are the only way forward for many established traditional carriers if they want to attract price-conscious customers. "Our ticket prices are 40 percent below economy prices at our parent company," Wilson says.
But flying low-cost is also less comfortable and the flight times can be inconvenient."
"It is not what passengers in Asia are accustomed to, as airlines there are rightly renowned for their excellent service. "Customers here had no idea what to expect from a low-cost carrier - they thought they'd get free drinks and meals. The really had to adapt," Campbell Wilson, head of Scoot explains."
-----
This got me thinking about AC's Rouge, where as we know from this thread, there is a long debate about the costs being cheaper for AC but not the customer.
Very interesting article from Deutsche Welle
"Lufthansa to Operate Low-Fare, Long-Haul Eurowings Routes"
Note the strategy and the reference to how they deal with the wage cost.
It would be interesting to hear from you experts on how Eurowings or Scoot compare to Rouge as carrier brands as well as from pax pov.
http://www.dw.de/long-haul-on-the-ch...egy/a-18110397
Dec 6, 2014, 5:23 am
#4037
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
If people weren't so price conscious, flying would be much better (e.g. WardAir) days. Unfortunately people are simply treating flying like a commodity and they don't enjoy paying much for it. So they whine and whine and now we get these HD planes. Sad but true economic fact. There's a 5 letter word I'm thinking of (especially of where I am right now). People being "cheap" comes to mind.
Dec 6, 2014, 5:32 am
#4038
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,531
If people weren't so price conscious, flying would be much better (e.g. WardAir) days. Unfortunately people are simply treating flying like a commodity and they don't enjoy paying much for it. So they whine and whine and now we get these HD planes. Sad but true economic fact. There's a 5 letter word I'm thinking of (especially of where I am right now). People being "cheap" comes to mind.
Many airlines have tried to lure less price sensitive flyers by offering better products and more lavish offerings, but time and experience has shown that it does not work.
Before people throw EK, SQ et al out at me, please keep in mind these are long distance, international carriers than can connect most of the world in one stop and has access to many people with that level of disposable income. There aren't that many of those flying within NA.
Wardair, as you stated, There used to be couches in DC-8s and when the 747 came out the entire upstairs was a lounge. AA tried the More Room Throughout Economy, and may others have tried. The fact remains most people look at the price, the schedule and decide if they like it of not. They don't care about seat pitch (until they sit down, but that's forgotten when they get off, of the food, or the luggage times. They just want to get from A to B quickly for less money.
Until there are enough real numbers willing to pay for more, there is no economically viable alternative to where North Amercian/European Airlines are headed.
Dec 6, 2014, 5:42 am
#4039
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
You are mostly correct. The reality is that people here represent a small percentage of the flying public, and despite the frequency of their flying it still does not represent enough revenue/traffic to warrant more consideration than the FF programme in terms of P/L.
Many airlines have tried to lure less price sensitive flyers by offering better products and more lavish offerings, but time and experience has shown that it does not work.
Before people throw EK, SQ et al out at me, please keep in mind these are long distance, international carriers than can connect most of the world in one stop and has access to many people with that level of disposable income. There aren't that many of those flying within NA.
Wardair, as you stated, There used to be couches in DC-8s and when the 747 came out the entire upstairs was a lounge. AA tried the More Room Throughout Economy, and may others have tried. The fact remains most people look at the price, the schedule and decide if they like it of not. They don't care about seat pitch (until they sit down, but that's forgotten when they get off, of the food, or the luggage times. They just want to get from A to B quickly for less money.
Until there are enough real numbers willing to pay for more, there is no economically viable alternative to where North Amercian/European Airlines are headed.
Many airlines have tried to lure less price sensitive flyers by offering better products and more lavish offerings, but time and experience has shown that it does not work.
Before people throw EK, SQ et al out at me, please keep in mind these are long distance, international carriers than can connect most of the world in one stop and has access to many people with that level of disposable income. There aren't that many of those flying within NA.
Wardair, as you stated, There used to be couches in DC-8s and when the 747 came out the entire upstairs was a lounge. AA tried the More Room Throughout Economy, and may others have tried. The fact remains most people look at the price, the schedule and decide if they like it of not. They don't care about seat pitch (until they sit down, but that's forgotten when they get off, of the food, or the luggage times. They just want to get from A to B quickly for less money.
Until there are enough real numbers willing to pay for more, there is no economically viable alternative to where North Amercian/European Airlines are headed.
Dec 6, 2014, 5:47 am
#4040
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Thanks for the Memories !!!
Posts: 10,658
I completely agree, although I did recall seeing a banner/ad at YVR of some Japanese airline (ANA or JAL - pretty sure it was JAL) that featured their Y product being superior due to increased shoulder and leg room. I truly wonder if that is working from a competitive stance.
Dec 6, 2014, 5:55 am
#4041
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Dec 6, 2014, 6:30 am
#4042
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE,MM
Posts: 363
Grrr.
I see AC has just sent out a Rouge promotional email blast that directs people to their spiffy new web-site ... complete with the glamour shots that somehow show oodles of legroom in standard Rouge class.
Haven't seen the new site yet? Refer to my "truth in advertising" rant a couple of pages back.
They have every right to promote this dog, to use flowery language to sell it (provided that it's honest), and to show happy pretend customers in their photography. But when every Rouge class passenger (err, model) photo on the site is shown with 6 inches of extra legroom, well ... something's fishy. And when they make claims about those seats giving customers "more room and comfort"?? Again, grrr. It does not represent the truth.
I see AC has just sent out a Rouge promotional email blast that directs people to their spiffy new web-site ... complete with the glamour shots that somehow show oodles of legroom in standard Rouge class.
Haven't seen the new site yet? Refer to my "truth in advertising" rant a couple of pages back.
They have every right to promote this dog, to use flowery language to sell it (provided that it's honest), and to show happy pretend customers in their photography. But when every Rouge class passenger (err, model) photo on the site is shown with 6 inches of extra legroom, well ... something's fishy. And when they make claims about those seats giving customers "more room and comfort"?? Again, grrr. It does not represent the truth.
Dec 6, 2014, 6:31 am
#4043
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Dec 6, 2014, 7:27 am
#4044
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE,MM
Posts: 363
Well, actually I would fault them for dishonest advertising.
I am aware of complaints to the Ad Council having an impact, so would encourage anyone so inclined to pursue that.
I am aware of complaints to the Ad Council having an impact, so would encourage anyone so inclined to pursue that.
Dec 6, 2014, 7:38 am
#4045
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
If people weren't so price conscious, flying would be much better (e.g. WardAir) days. Unfortunately people are simply treating flying like a commodity and they don't enjoy paying much for it. So they whine and whine and now we get these HD planes. Sad but true economic fact. There's a 5 letter word I'm thinking of (especially of where I am right now). People being "cheap" comes to mind.
As a general rule, I don't object to people being 'cheap'. It fuels competition, efficiency and innovation. It's the same 'cheap' folk who shunned expensive electronics yesterday who've made PCs so accessible today.
I don't object to the Rouge product any more than I do to the FR product. If it works for someone, great. What I object to is the significantly worse value for money that Rouge provides relative to similar products around the world. That, to me, is more indicative of a structurally flawed market than it is of consumer cheapness. AC pax revenue per average seat mile are significantly higher than other N. American carriers. That they still cough up a Rouge product that is substandard compared to the much-maligned US mainline carriers suggests that the problem isn't cheap passengers; it's either an inefficient company or a structurally flawed market or a combination of the two.
I suppose the real question is: if everybody paid $20 more, would AC add more legroom under current market conditions?
Dec 6, 2014, 8:14 am
#4046
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: YYZ
Programs: All Accor Plat, 1865 Voyager, AE E35K, HH Gold,Hyatt, Hrtz Gold, Marriott Gold, NEXUS
Posts: 1,670
If people weren't so price conscious, flying would be much better (e.g. WardAir) days. Unfortunately people are simply treating flying like a commodity and they don't enjoy paying much for it. So they whine and whine and now we get these HD planes. Sad but true economic fact. There's a 5 letter word I'm thinking of (especially of where I am right now). People being "cheap" comes to mind.
On another note, seeing as there are some people who are willing to pay for that increased comfort, I am surprised that the premium economy section isn`t a little more palatable. It wouldn`t have taken much to find a couple more inches for the 4 rows they have given up for premium rouge.
Dec 6, 2014, 8:14 am
#4047
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
It would be interesting to hear from you experts on how Eurowings or Scoot compare to Rouge as carrier brands as well as from pax pov.
http://www.dw.de/long-haul-on-the-ch...egy/a-18110397
http://www.dw.de/long-haul-on-the-ch...egy/a-18110397
(I know people who have flown HKGSIN v.v for HKD88+YQ+tax, and there were many free or deeply discounted ticket promotions.)
I cannot comment on €wings as I have not flown them.
Dec 6, 2014, 8:15 am
#4048
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
I hear what you are saying. I went to EDI with a group of 8 last year on a fairy high end golf trip. This was no budget vacation. All the people I was going with I believe had higher incomes than me - high 6 figures to maybe even 7 figures a year. We went on the new Rouge 767 not too long after the route started and bought our tickets well in advance. I think the tango fare was about $850 or $900 and the premium economy fare was about $1300. All but 2 chose the tango fare, despite warnings from me about what they were getting into. So these people who were paying around $10,000 for a luxury trip were willing to sit in sardine can economy for 7 or 8 hours there and back to save $400 or $500. I honestly couldn`t believe it!
On another note, seeing as there are some people who are willing to pay for that increased comfort, I am surprised that the premium economy section isn`t a little more palatable. It wouldn`t have taken much to find a couple more inches for the 4 rows they have given up for premium rouge.
On another note, seeing as there are some people who are willing to pay for that increased comfort, I am surprised that the premium economy section isn`t a little more palatable. It wouldn`t have taken much to find a couple more inches for the 4 rows they have given up for premium rouge.
Dec 6, 2014, 8:26 am
#4049
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: YYZ
Programs: All Accor Plat, 1865 Voyager, AE E35K, HH Gold,Hyatt, Hrtz Gold, Marriott Gold, NEXUS
Posts: 1,670
I did. The direct flight was cheaper so not much chance of that. Also put in a choice for FRA so some could have used points - only 1 thought it was a good idea - the other person who was willing to cough up the $$$ for premium rouge. Of course, the reward seats with scam charges were almost the same price as the direct rouge fare!
Dec 6, 2014, 9:06 am
#4050
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE,MM
Posts: 363
The thing is, $400-500 is much more than the cost of a night in a good hotel.
I have several times made the choice to:
buy Tango to Europe, and buy an extra night hotel (ie have it available as soon as I land, as opposed to:
taking chances on Aerolotto and hoping for early checkin
I have several times made the choice to:
buy Tango to Europe, and buy an extra night hotel (ie have it available as soon as I land, as opposed to:
taking chances on Aerolotto and hoping for early checkin