airdude35

my comments on another thread have reminded me that I have been meaning to post this but : Why does United think putting 757s on flights to places like Berlin, Oslo, Stuttgart etc is profitable. Maybe some of the flights wouldn't get cut if it wasn't for this

Kacee

You have it backwards. UA can only fly to these second tier cities because they have the 752. Those flights don't generate enough traffic to support a widebody.

This topic has been beaten to death, over and over again.

emcampbe

Because perhaps, for the most part, it is/has been? Do you have access to numbers that show using the international 752s on these routes are unprofitable? Or that up-gauging these routes would allow them to be more profitable, noting that if the demand isn't there to use bigger aircraft, all that would be added are extra costs, and potentially taking widebodies from routes that would make more?

And have you asked in the AA or DL forums why those carriers also think using 757s TATL are profitable?

craz

I cant believe Im saying this, but after having to endure a LH in Y, Id be thrilled to be on a UA 752 in E+ , the more citys they fly them into the better the chances of a Saver Y being able to be had

w/o the 752 UAs map for its own metal flights TATL would look like AAs or USs , few and far in between

JVPhoto

I've had countless EWR-TXL-EWR flights in the 752 and it has been fine and seems that it's always a fairly full load.
They've put a 3 class 763 on for the summer months, I'll be on it in less than 2 weeks and I'm interested to see what that looks like.

JOSECONLSCREW28

For the month of July EWR - TXL is being flown with an sUA 3-cabin 763. Returns back to an sCO 752 next month.

TWA Fan 1

And yet both AA and US (as well as DL) fly the 752 TATL.

SunLover

When fuel costs are lower and the flights are close to capacity these are profitable routes. Continental was ahead of its time when they began flying the narrow body 752 to second tier European destinations in the early 2000’s. They equipped the aircraft with extra fuel capacity specifically to make the journey. The business model to service long/thin international routes was the reason Boeing developed the 787.

+1 on my last UA 752 TATL trip in Y I had 21A both ways and it was doable. The alternative of *A E- code shares is indeed bleak by comparison.


SunLover

TWA Fan 1

PMCO considered adding auxiliary fuel tanks but decided not to because it would have meant decreasing cargo hold capacity too drastically.

They major modifications were the addition of winglets which added about 200 nm to the range of these a/c and a new type of brakes which reduced weight.

Also, while it is true that a smaller a/c is more economical to operate on a "long-thin" route, one of the main reasons CO decided to operate the 752's on TATL is that they had this type of a/c in their fleet and this was a creative, profitable way to operate them.

gum

Just would like to add some personal impressions concerning the US-TXL route.

Back in the 90s Lufthansa tried to use a widebody aircraft on the route TXL-HAM-New York. It was a tiny A310 with extended range. After a short period of time (if I remember correctly was less than one year) this route was discontinued.

Berlin simply hadn't the market potential to support such a large aircraft especially in the profitable travel classes First and Business. So I can only *assume* that the things haven't changed dramatically.

Not many of German's leading corporations have their headquarters in Berlin, the main stock exchange is in Frankfurt.

In 2003 even Berlin's mayor Mr. Wowereit said that Berlin is "arm, aber sexy"

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschl...id_117712.html

With a high unemployment rate and lower average salaries than e.g. in Dusseldorf, Munich or Frankfurt it is simply not the best hub for intercontinental travel.

That said the capacity of the B757 seems to be perfect.

Maybe the aircraft size of a Privatair Business Jet would also fit, but I don't know the difference in operating costs vw. additional revenue:

http://www.lufthansagroup.com/de/unt...7-800-igw.html

Just thinking that using a large bird and opening up many lower booking classes for Economy Class travel simply doesn't work.

Cargojon

I have to admit, I've intentionally avoided narrow-body TATL flights in the past, but after flying a LH 747 in Y, I think I agree with you here.

EWR764

Exactly. Converting the 752s to transatlantic got them out of the domestic system, where their higher CASM and increased performance was unnecessary. With the advent of transcontinental range in the 737NG fleet, the domestic 752s became redundant at CO. Even the sUA 752s with derated PW2037s and higher capacity are a challenging proposition in this environment. There's a reason UA/AA/DL are replacing 757s with A321/739ER while DL is adding seats to the 757s it is holding on to.

The 757 has the lowest fixed costs of any transatlantic-capable airplane in the UA fleet and a better J:Y ratio for smaller or leisure-oriented markets. Its limitations, of course, are range, inability to carry containerized freight and premium cabin capacity. It's a good tool for the transatlantic arsenal, but suboptimal for many of the markets it was deployed to by CO out of necessity. As time goes on, we'll see more sCO 757s operating in other markets (like DEN-Hawaii, LIH and Latin America) where the 739ER lacks the performance to replace the 757 one-for-one.

StingWest

Agree! (although it *is* refreshing to see those Lufthansa FA's running down the aisle to serve people efficiently!)

BearX220

A lot of people on FT claim they couldn't possibly endure a narrowbody transoceanic flight, which is pretty funny because they were commonplace for decades, through 1980 or so. There's really no difference in individual comfort compared to the widebodies, and you get to circumvent big difficult hubs in Europe. CO opened secondary markets like BRS, BFS and EDI direct from EWR and, before EWR went totally to hell, it was a definite net positive to fly a 757 out of there to those small markets and avoid transiting LHR.

EWR764

When was that? EWR has been hell for as long as I can remember!