colpuck

http://www.united.com/web/en-US/cont.../lifetime.aspx

I agree with xFF. While the changes are bad and poor business practice, they do not rise to level of legally actionable.

Fredd

Thanks for your insightful comments. ^

Please note that I'm not making any pretense of legal expertise, and it appears we're in agreement that that what UA has done is "wrong" and "unfair."

I'm also looking at the totality of the meaning of the two sentences. If you and I disagree that drastically on the meaning of those two sentences, it would appear that UA has published something quite confusing, whether intentionally or not, about the benefits of MM.

Please note also that the FAQ is addressed to PMUA MMers such as me. UA did "grandfather" benefits for PMUA 2 MM and placed PMCO IEs in an appropriate category.

Based on my dealings with UA over the previous decade, the sentences in question reinforced my belief that UA would treat me fairly, rather than using the merger as a pretext to remove the lifetime benefits it had previously promised me.

That's why I asked you to list them. The only "lifetime" mentioned is "lifetime Premier status." The benefits are "annual benefits."

We do agree that the changes are "bad and poor business practice." I'll leave it to the practicing lawyers to argue the legal aspects profitably.

colpuck

Lets look at this problem in a different way.

Let's say the faq said this.
In Oct 2011 UA says
So UA eliminates the Million Miler program as well as CO lifetime elites. This would be within the scope of terms and conditions. (which would be UA's defense when said members did sue)

The problem is UA has two contradictory statements, The T&C can change whenever and however and the promise to provide lifetime benefits. There would be a case here, not because of the words in FAQ but because both UA and CO offered lifetime benefits of some sort and is now killing them.

But there in lies the problem everyone can reasonably rely on some lifetime benefits. But they cannot rely on a specific set of benefits. This leads to Fredd's statements that he doesn't have any lifetime benefits, which is the only way the litigation stands a chance of being successful. But there are still lifetime benefits in some form.

So that leads to the next issue. We get lifetime benefits, what benefits are reasonable? I have no idea. Something more than nothing less than everything. But as long as we are demanding specific benefits, I want my all EQMs count back!

xFF

I will preface this with exactly the same thought.

In truth, while I do believe that what I held in my post is true, I would not even addressed it, except that I became a bit annoyed by the continuing ad hominem flaming of the poster making the original "gift" vs "contract" nature of the programs.

That poster (who, BTW, does write with the point of view of a lawyer, even if his posts sometimes appear to be written from some new-fangled x-pad/pod from a Starbuck's without the benefit of keyboard, spell checking, or the ability to review the whole post) provides some inconvenient points of view.

When the comments crossed from addressing form to addressing substance -I believe, incorrectly- with the same tone, I was moved to reply.

I hope those who feel passionately about this issue will take note of your posts. Even while few on this thread are as passionate or proactive as you have been, your posts never contradict your FT handle.

Fredd

Incorrect IMO. The only reference to lifetime is to lifetime Premier status. The UA website makes that clear:

Million Milers enjoy generous annual benefits and lifetime Premier� status.

The Million Miler program grants lifetime Premier status to all qualifying members, even if they fly less in the future. Here are the status benefits of the Million Miler program...

It's all a moot point, anyway, since according to the "legalistic" arguments of some, "lifetime" has no meaning anyway.

colpuck

Some people think faster than they can type. So, the words occasionally tumble out onto the screen in a slightly underdeveloped style.

No, lifetime has a meaning. If UA killed the MM program and all lifetime benefits there would be a cause of action, I think. But, as to what it means specifically, I have no idea. The plaintiff in the hypothetical lawsuit would have to show that the benefits as provided on a whole are unreasonable in light of past benefits. It does not seem possible. It has to be shown that the spousal benefit is unreasonable compared to the certs. that's difficult if not impossible. Remember that's unreasonable on the whole, not just to you.

UA could easily remedy this problem by stating a person can elect on a yearly basis either to take the certs available at their MM level in addition to what they earn throughout the year or the spousal benefit.

xFF

I don't want to get a reputation of either a 'parser' or an 'apologist' (although I might consider 'shill' if the money were good enough ), but I think the SO benefit can reasonably be deemed lifetime as well.

Your link states
Annual Companion Premier status

As a Million Miler you may invite your spouse or significant other to share your current Premier status. This membership is non-transferable and will automatically renew each year unless you let us know otherwise.

If you couple that with the granting of "lifetime Premier status to all qualifying members," isn't it reasonable to read the "Annual" nature of the companion benefit as meaning only that it is changeable between beneficiaries annually at your option, while persisting in its tenor for your lifetime?

Fredd

Wait until you get to my age.

Thanks. I think I understand your point. ^ Yes, IMHO that would be an easy remedy for them and probably something I could at least grudgingly accept. I still think that UA simply blundered into this situation to some extent, although there's no question IMO that part of their overall intent is to reduce the number of UG instruments for everybody.

Along the same lines, I think some of the employees (as well as the customers) coming from the CO side were used to that spousal benefit and assumed...

Speaking as one of those notorious high school English teachers (one part of my checkered past), I invite you to parse away.

IMO the emphasis seems to be on annual rather than lifetime, but maybe I'm overly suspicious.

I wonder why that would be.

Baze

Lifetime of the program is just as valid as lifetime of the person.

Fredd

As this thread reaches toward 200,000 views (should we regulars hold a little party or fly to our own Do using our final regionals? ) I would settle for the lifetime of the program, that being in this case UA's MileagePlus� program.

UrbaneGent

Excellent point, Baze, which then poses the question about some fares (99.9% of which are the cheapest) which can't be posted your FF account. Or if I decide I don't want the meal or check in luggage....of which is all a la carte now. Of course I see what you are saying - (somewhat off topic: I remember wanting to get my Hertz car rental posted to my UA account and they wanted an additional fee for the miles....)

Said poster doesn't even know it's him (I notice I misspelled "by" in the sentence you reposted).

mre5765

No you wouldn't. A nanosecond after there are true open skies, LH would buy UA, and M+ would be replaced by M&M.

Fredd

M&M or the current S&M. That's some choice.

HonestABE

Let me start this post by stating that the following is not intended as an endorsement of the changes that have taken place...

What is apparent is that UA (and all other airlines, I presume) is attempting to increase the spread between RPM and CPM, i.e., increase their margins. In light of the terrible history of the lack of profitability of airlines, this is not only useful, it may be necessary for survival.

That said, there are two ways businesses can increase their margins. First, they can raise the "sticker" price while preserving the discounts (and "freebies") it passes out to various subgroups of customers. That strategy is not very popular, and often not feasible.

Second, they can hold the line on the "sticker" price while "decontenting" what is included in the "sticker" price. This is the strategy the auto industry has employed for years.

Examples of "decontenting" include things like eliminating "free" baggage allowances, "free" onboard meals in Y, "free" adult beverages on TATL flights in Y, and so forth. It also includes additional fees for "preferred" seats in Y as well as reservation change fees.

With low cost carriers taking significant market share from the legacies, the legacies have responded by emulating the LCC model to a large degree, especially for the occasional (not "elite") customer. "Decontenting," while maddening to the customer in its complexity, is popular because many passengers don't miss the things that were "free" in the past, or are willing to pay additional for the items on the menu they need and/or want - as long as the sticker price appears to be a good deal.

The implementation of TODs, and the resulting scarcity of "free" upgrades for elites is a natural extension of decontenting. Did "elites" complain when bag fees were instituted? When "free" meals in Y were eliminated? When access to E+ required an additional payment? No. because elites - especially top level elites - were largely insulated from these changes due to their status.

Now, however, decontenting is impacting elites in a tangible way, and the howling has begun.

Somewhere inside the heads of the powers-that-be at UA, it has been determined that the decontenting of elite benefits will be a net positive for margins, even given the likelihood that some elites will take their business elsewhere. I presume part of that thinking is based on the question, "Where are they going to go?"

My personal case is instructive. The recalibration of lifetime miles put me over the million mile mark. I have been an "elite" for 18 consecutive years, and 1K or 1P every year for the last 13 years. With 1P for life (along with my wife who is "stuck" with me for life), where am I going to go? Am I going to start over with DL or US or AA? Why? I, at least for present, get three "free" bags, exit row seating, a 50% bonus on paid BIS miles, and UC access on international flights. Ditto my wife. Each of those things has (varying) tangible value to both of us, especially the exit row seats.

Again, I make no representation that I agree with the changes that have been made.

UrbaneGent

This is why the new CO has benefited you - with the recalibration, you have become a MMiler and now you are set. If I were in your shoes I would be happy as well.

I have to believe we all understand the concept of survival. This particular thread only has to do with Million Miler benefits PRE-MERGER. If I am wrong or if anyone thinks otherwise, I am on the wrong thread.

The former United for decades stated "LIFETIME" benefits for those who actually flew 1,000,000 miles on United metal. When other airlines came out with their own "watered down" versions of million miler status, United made it even more enticing and added some more benefits. So gents like myself stuck it out on the airline, whilst my colleagues got to AA MM in half or a quarter of the time it took me to get MM on UA, but my benefits were much more superior....hold on, backtrack, what's the word I used...."were"

The NEW United took all the CO MMilers and brought them UP one tier...they were UPGRADED.

The NEW United recalibrated MP members such as yourself and many new MMilers (and their spouses) were created...they were UPGRADED.

The NEW United took Pre-Merger MMilers, who had spent time and money sitting on UA metal and took away every single promised LIFETIME benefit, added the spouse benefit and called it "new and improved"....they were DOWNGRADED.

This is the issue. I hate repeating this and I know some are sick of reading it, but threads are long and new people must see and understand. Many of us became MMilers expecting LIFETIME benefits. Some, such as myself where running to the 2MMiler mark, only to have it watered down. It's awful. Make 1MM Platinum, give the 2MM RCC lifetime membership...I dunno. But to put a PMUA MM in the same position as someone who hasn't flown a million miles? Awful.

UG