FWAAA

Can't help but be proud of these statistics:

The real story here is that if they found seven prohibited items in the random gate gropings, how many hundred more prohibited items slipped by (since only a small fraction of pax are gate-groped).

Hundreds of prohibited items at a small airport like Lansing, Michigan.

Imagine how many thousands of prohibited items slip past the screeners every day at ORD, JFK, LAX, DFW, ATL, SFO, etc.

The good news?? No evil use of any of those prohibited items, despite the TSA's failure to find them at the initial checkpoint.

Any of the TSA employees care to explain why it's so important to spend billions of dollars searching for these "prohibited items?"

www.lsj.com/news/local/030109security_1a-5a.html

tmspa

To be honest with you, the only reason it is important to us is because it is an order.

I agree that if or when the next plane goes down due to a terrorist it probably won't be because of a scissor or a pocket knife.

However, we are ordered (much like if you were in the military) to look for these items. So, $#!t rolls down hill and you can"t blame us for doing our jobs.

My question to you is: Can you honestly believe that these are the only items we are trained to detect and deal with?

[This message has been edited by tmspa (edited 01-14-2003).]

FWAAA

No, I'm not so stupid as to think that you are only trained to detect pocketknives and sewing kits. I'll bet some fraction of your extensive training focused on items actually prohibited by law and not just by Mineta (and now Loy).

My objection stems from the fact that lines got longer once idiot Mineta declared numerous items "dual use" and banned them, all without statutory authority to do so. Had the TSA been focused all along on looking solely for objects that the LAW prohibits, the lines would not have been so long, travelers wouldn't be as pissed off, and maybe the TSA could actually begin looking for terrorists instead of sharp and pointy (but perfectly legal) objects. Especially when it turns out that the TSA doesn't catch anywhere near all of them anyway. Billions poured down the toilet.

TSA@CAE

FWAAA....Well, since you mentioned the LAW. Carrying pointy things such as pocket knives in carry-on bags is against the LAW. Made so by inclusion on the prohibited item list. Why is it so hard to place such things in a checked bag? For the life of me I cannot figure out why that is a problem. Guns can be checked, but not taken in a carry-on. Why is it a problem for knives and other pointy things? Sure, people say that nothing like 9-11 will happen again because of passenger response. We are just trying to make sure that passengers don't have to respond like that. We will miss some items, we cannot catch 100% of them. Asking for perfection is just a tad bit out of human means.

Spiff

The truth of it is that many of us don't care if you miss knives. So please stop randomly searching passengers in the hopes of finding one that the x-ray/magnetometer missed and for the love of God stop evacuating concourses if you think you did. It's a knife, not a bomb. There's a certain amount of risk associated w/flying. Miss a knife or a few knives? We don't care. Expend your efforts and our tax dollars looking for real, credible threats.



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

tmspa

The fact is, we can't just stop doing these things. Again, as stated above, we are ordered to carry out these procedures. We can't just decide one day that we aren't going to follow the rules. Do you think we just invent ways on our own to harrass you?

TSA@CAE

Spiff... we HAVE to screen all bags for prohibited items. Thats our job and we try hard to get everyone through with as little bother as possible. People are starting to catch on and checking pocket knives. I caught one fellow last week with a 3 3/4 inch blade. In my state a 4 inch blade is illegal to own. he also had another smaller knife. The law enforcement officer standing behind me asked the guy if he had another knife. He replied no. Then the officer told him that if I found another one that he would take him downstairs for questioning. I did not find another one. My point is that if this fellow had just put his knives in his checked bag, none of that would have happened and he would still have his knives.

Spiff

I doubt it gives you a savage sense of glee, but you accept a paycheck for randomly harassing people. I'm sorry, but you have to take responsibility for your actions even if you're "following orders".



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Spiff

If you see a knife or something suspicions on the x-ray, fine. If the magnetometer beeps, fine. Otherwise, you should leave people alone. Even if someone has a machete, they are not going to hijack a plane with it.



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

SinJin

FWAAA, to answer your question:
Any of the TSA employees care to explain why it's so important to spend billions of dollars searching for these "prohibited items?"

The search you refer to is only one part of a multiple facet plan to prevent another civilian aviation nightmare. Granted there are areas that need improvement and that will happen but overall, it's a good plan. Can every decision that our leaders make always be 100% correct? No. Can every screener make the correct decision 100% of the time? No.
Fact is, we all make mistakes but for some reason, you do not grant us the same rights to make those mistakes that you make in your career's. The money spent is necessary for the greater good of society and sometimes toes get stepped on but overall, it still the best thing we got going.

In respect to what the TSA finds vs. what it misses is not the point. No agency, no company and no person can ever be so comprehensive to catch everything. The fact that no harm has come to anyone due to anything getting through is something you should celebrate and not as a barometer of our failures. Fact is, 99.999% of passengers are not a threat but what will you say when the TSA does prevent something? Will you call us lucky? Will you thank us? Personally, I don't need the thanks but I would appreciate being respected for what I'm trying to do.

My apologies if I didn't give you the answer you were looking for...

Regards, SinJin...

TSA@CAE

Spiff...we don't randomly "harass." (your word) We "harass" EVERYONE. Sorry you see it that way, you are in the vast minority.

JS

On the bright side, according to my estimates, this means that the success rate for security finding the pointy objects (unlikely evil use notwithstanding) is 98%.

2% failure rate sounds pretty low compared to what I've read before, but just as a mathematical exercise, let's continue. With p = probability of finding the prohibited item from a passenger carrying one

and 1) assuming p is the same at the main security checkpoint as it is at the gate

and 2) assuming 5% of passengers go through secondary gate screening

and 3) assuming the discoveries at the two checkpoints are independent (very good assumption, since TSA screeners don't run back and forth to check the same passenger twice)

7 items at the gate over 15 months, and 514 items per month at the main checkpoint is 514*15*0.05 = 386 items per "checked gate person" per month at the main checkpoint, plus another 7 found at the gate, for a total of 393 (7 versus 386 means we can assume practically zero slip past both).

7 out of 393 is 0.0178. The probability that a "gate check" passenger carrying a prohibited item makes it past the main checkpoint without discovery AND is found at the gate is (1-p)*p. If (1-p)*p is 0.0178, that means p is 0.98, or a 2% failure rate. Much better than the bomb-detection machines.

Brian

SinJin, do not make the mistake of thinking that the small number of people here with the loudest views represent anything more than the tinist of minorities of the public. They do not.

Most of us respect the work you are doing, and thank you for it.

TSA@CAE

Spiff said..."Even if someone has a machete, they are not going to hijack a plane with it."

You know this to be a fact how? You must have had to surrender a pocketknife at some point in your travels I suspect.

tmspa

I take repsonsibility for my actions. I do what I am told and I don't just decide to stop doing that because someone (outside the administration) disagrees with it.