Despite TSA's best efforts, prohibited items still get thru the security checkpoints
Jan 15, 2003, 9:35 am
#91
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,082
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tazi:
I'm not too concerned about a knife getting through security. I think the chance of one being used to hijack and aircraft is about .000001%. I also don't see someone coming on the plane with the intent of slicing up a few passengers. People didn't do it before 9-11 and I don't see it as a real threat now.
Some of this really needs to be put in perspective. While so much time and effort is being put into searching for knives and such, very little seems to have been done other areas.</font>
I'm not too concerned about a knife getting through security. I think the chance of one being used to hijack and aircraft is about .000001%. I also don't see someone coming on the plane with the intent of slicing up a few passengers. People didn't do it before 9-11 and I don't see it as a real threat now.
Some of this really needs to be put in perspective. While so much time and effort is being put into searching for knives and such, very little seems to have been done other areas.</font>
Most large scale terrorist acts are well planned and executed but you have cells and splinter groups who determine their own course of terror and of course then there are just the nutters who decide they're going to fight for the cause just for a sense of self importance.
A friend of mine had his knife confiscated many years ago flying UK - Cyprus. I " know " he wasn't a threat but the security forces don't. Maybe banning knives has helped to stop individual cells or terror groups killing passengers or maybe the UK has had it wrong all these years. Who knows, the way I figure it no one needs an obvious weapon on an aircraft so don't take it with you.
BTW my friend is a lawyer, probably more dangerous with his gob than a camping knife
Nigel
Jan 15, 2003, 9:51 am
#92
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newport News, Va USA
Posts: 82
beergut... You hit the nail on the head, we don't know who the people flying are, we can't know. We don't know what they have in mind or what drives them. To err on the side of safety is better than the other way around. Sometimes I think these "harassed" people would prefer anarchy so they won't have any of their rights infringed upon. The bottom line is that all we have in this world that matters is life, you take that away and what else is left? I am leaving this board as well...too many constitution wavers for my taste. They may have a point on some things, but they are way off base on this one.
To think I used to vote Libertarian, never again.
To think I used to vote Libertarian, never again.
Jan 15, 2003, 10:21 am
#93
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I have stated before that I am just fine with the x-ray and the magnetometer. I am also ok with a search of a person if the magnetometer alarms (provided it isn't going off when the air conditioning picks up) or a search of their belongings when the x-ray indicates there's something unclear or amiss. I understand the airlines' computers pring the hated SSSS on passengers boarding passes. I understand all these things very, very clearly.
What I despise and what I will never accept is the "random" or "continuous" or "for the hell of it" harassment for anyone who has not met one of the criteria in paragraph 1. To me, that is harassment, pure and simple. It adds nothing to security and is an affront to the principles upon which this nation was founded.
Get it now?
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
What I despise and what I will never accept is the "random" or "continuous" or "for the hell of it" harassment for anyone who has not met one of the criteria in paragraph 1. To me, that is harassment, pure and simple. It adds nothing to security and is an affront to the principles upon which this nation was founded.
Get it now?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
spiff....if putting your carry-on bags through an x-ray machine and walking through a walk-through metal detector is harassment, then I suggest you look at how they do things in Cuba or North Korea. Oh, I forgot, people don't fly from those places, they row or run. Sure, you have every right to speak whatever you like, I defended your right to do so for 20+ years. However, I have every right to disagree with you if I so choose. One thing you might or might not know, it is not the TSA that selects people for further screening...it is the AIRLINES that do that. They direct us to conduct further screening. If you have a problem with that, then direct it to the proper people, we have no control over it. Not only do we answer to them in those matters, we also answer to the stakeholders in the airport itself, in my area, that is a county and two city administrations since we are a metroploitan airport authority.
Waving the bill of rights around like a flag is kinda silly since we all have the same rights....</font>
spiff....if putting your carry-on bags through an x-ray machine and walking through a walk-through metal detector is harassment, then I suggest you look at how they do things in Cuba or North Korea. Oh, I forgot, people don't fly from those places, they row or run. Sure, you have every right to speak whatever you like, I defended your right to do so for 20+ years. However, I have every right to disagree with you if I so choose. One thing you might or might not know, it is not the TSA that selects people for further screening...it is the AIRLINES that do that. They direct us to conduct further screening. If you have a problem with that, then direct it to the proper people, we have no control over it. Not only do we answer to them in those matters, we also answer to the stakeholders in the airport itself, in my area, that is a county and two city administrations since we are a metroploitan airport authority.
Waving the bill of rights around like a flag is kinda silly since we all have the same rights....</font>
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
Jan 15, 2003, 10:36 am
#95
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
beergut... You hit the nail on the head, we don't know who the people flying are, we can't know. We don't know what they have in mind or what drives them. To err on the side of safety is better than the other way around. Sometimes I think these "harassed" people would prefer anarchy so they won't have any of their rights infringed upon. The bottom line is that all we have in this world that matters is life, you take that away and what else is left? I am leaving this board as well...too many constitution wavers for my taste. They may have a point on some things, but they are way off base on this one.
To think I used to vote Libertarian, never again.</font>
beergut... You hit the nail on the head, we don't know who the people flying are, we can't know. We don't know what they have in mind or what drives them. To err on the side of safety is better than the other way around. Sometimes I think these "harassed" people would prefer anarchy so they won't have any of their rights infringed upon. The bottom line is that all we have in this world that matters is life, you take that away and what else is left? I am leaving this board as well...too many constitution wavers for my taste. They may have a point on some things, but they are way off base on this one.
To think I used to vote Libertarian, never again.</font>
Jan 15, 2003, 10:36 am
#96
Join Date: Sep 2002
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
(Sec. 136) Directs the Under Secretary to recommend to airport operators commercially available measures or procedures to prevent access to secure airport areas by unauthorized persons.
Directs the Secretary to ensure that the Computer-Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS), or successor system is used to evaluate all passengers before they board an aircraft and includes procedures to ensure that individuals selected by the system and their carry-on and checked baggage are adequately screened.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquer...:@@@L&summ2=m&
buhbye
[This message has been edited by tazi (edited 01-15-2003).]
Jan 15, 2003, 10:42 am
#97
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newport News, Va USA
Posts: 82
tazi...ok, so why take it out on the screeners? Kinda like stomping on the worker ant cause the queen refuses to move the anthill. Getting mad at me solves nothing for you now does it? I suspect that you have procedures in your job that others disagree with, but you still do them right? So we have to do our jobs as well. Eventually the "continuous" screening will go away when the "threat" level drops.
Of course that is only my opinion and not that of any other entity. Quantities are limited so act now. Void where prohibited by law. Small pieces may present choking hazard. Keep out of the reach of small children. Do not use in the vicinity of small pets. Use in a well ventilated area. Do not stand on top rung, falling hazard. Do not inhale fumes. Do not look at directly, eye damage may result. Do not taunt happy fun ball.
[This message has been edited by TSA@CAE (edited 01-15-2003).]
Of course that is only my opinion and not that of any other entity. Quantities are limited so act now. Void where prohibited by law. Small pieces may present choking hazard. Keep out of the reach of small children. Do not use in the vicinity of small pets. Use in a well ventilated area. Do not stand on top rung, falling hazard. Do not inhale fumes. Do not look at directly, eye damage may result. Do not taunt happy fun ball.
[This message has been edited by TSA@CAE (edited 01-15-2003).]
Jan 15, 2003, 10:55 am
#98
Join Date: Oct 2000
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
I guess I am in the camp who looks at all those tubs of pocket knives, knitting needles and other sharp and pointy items and thinks "well, they are somewhat good at finding sharp and pointy things but have they really stopped anything except a couple of drunk pilots?" Guess we'll never know and that is fine with me.
What I do find interesting is that it appears to me, based on what I have seen here and read in the media, the TSA indoctrinators are very good at convincing the rank and file that they are "on the front lines of national security" and their actions are embraced by all Americans. Then the media interview some once-a-year traveler who gushes over the polite people who went through their undies and how much safer they feel. "Feelings, nothing more than feelings..."
Then, when one of the rank-in-file runs into someone who doesn't drop to their knees in patriotic gratitude, the whole SOP stops and their only response is to become defensive and threatening...here, that amounts to "I'm taking my marbles and going home" playground behavior. In the real world, it means threats of being banned from flights and worse, simply for asking the identity of a particular screener. The corrupting influence of power can take all forms.
On flight days, my entire goal for travel is to have as little to do with the TSA as possible. I don't speak unless spoken to, I don't respond to socializing (you want me to socialize with you, become a bartender), my pockets are empty, my laptop is out, my jacket is off, I go through and never beep, I put up with the "continuous random wandings"...in other words, I do not cooperate, I simply comply...and I'm out of there fast! And when recently, I walked all the way from A12 to F15 in MSP and didn't see a single TSAer except at the CPs, I thought, COOL, things are getting better.
OK, when I walk out of certain airports upon arrival, and I see the checkpoint with the gate closed at 11:30 at night with no further flights departing still staffed by 8 or 9 TSAers all reading books or talking on cellphones, I roll my eyes...but I do it in a most compliant way!
Jan 15, 2003, 10:58 am
#99
Join Date: Sep 2002
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
tazi...ok, so why take it out on the screeners? Kinda like stomping on the worker ant cause the queen refuses to move the anthill. Getting mad at me solves nothing for you now does it? I suspect that you have procedures in your job that others disagree with, but you still do them right? So we have to do our jobs as well. Eventually the "continuous" screening will go away when the "threat" level drops.
</font>
tazi...ok, so why take it out on the screeners? Kinda like stomping on the worker ant cause the queen refuses to move the anthill. Getting mad at me solves nothing for you now does it? I suspect that you have procedures in your job that others disagree with, but you still do them right? So we have to do our jobs as well. Eventually the "continuous" screening will go away when the "threat" level drops.
</font>
You were trying to push the blame for something onto the airlines who are already suffering enough because of this. That is wrong and I pointed out your mistake.
Funny you should mention ants
Jan 15, 2003, 11:08 am
#100
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newport News, Va USA
Posts: 82
tazi...ants indeed. The system will change over time, it already has come a long way. If anyone thinks the airlines were not hurting before any of this happened, then they are sadly mistaken. We are trying to make things better, and in time that will happen.
Of course that is only my opinion and not that of any other entity. Quantities are limited so act now. Void where prohibited by law. Small pieces may present choking hazard. Keep out of the reach of small children. Do not use in the vicinity of small pets. Use in a well ventilated area. Do not stand on top rung, falling hazard. Do not inhale fumes. Do not look at directly, eye damage may result. Do not taunt happy fun ball.
Of course that is only my opinion and not that of any other entity. Quantities are limited so act now. Void where prohibited by law. Small pieces may present choking hazard. Keep out of the reach of small children. Do not use in the vicinity of small pets. Use in a well ventilated area. Do not stand on top rung, falling hazard. Do not inhale fumes. Do not look at directly, eye damage may result. Do not taunt happy fun ball.
Jan 15, 2003, 11:40 am
#101
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 928
Taz, Taz ,Taz, The airlines are suffering because they suck at labor relations. I was offered a $25 an hour job as a airline mechanic with US Air. After I researched the union and the rumor of strike I said "hell no". Check out what's sitting on the ramp right below the window at your airport, probably a BBQ grill and basketball goal. These folks are being paid to screw off and your footing the bill.
Jan 15, 2003, 11:54 am
#102
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Ok, once again and very slowly:
"Continuous", "Random", or "For the Hell of it" Harassment is mandated by the TSA. Not the airlines. Not George W. Bush. Not Saddam Hussein. Not Bob Hope. The TSA. Your agency.
There is no point in going to the airlines, or any of the individuals listed above for "redress".
I don't think I can make it any plainer, but if it's still confusing, I'll be happy to try. ASCII pictures can be a tad difficult to understand, however.
------------------
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
"Continuous", "Random", or "For the Hell of it" Harassment is mandated by the TSA. Not the airlines. Not George W. Bush. Not Saddam Hussein. Not Bob Hope. The TSA. Your agency.
There is no point in going to the airlines, or any of the individuals listed above for "redress".
I don't think I can make it any plainer, but if it's still confusing, I'll be happy to try. ASCII pictures can be a tad difficult to understand, however.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by TSA@CAE:
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
Spiff....again, see the airlines for redress of that. Bye.</font>
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
Jan 15, 2003, 9:31 pm
#103
Join Date: Dec 1999
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mwp2paris:
... Then the media interview some once-a-year traveler who gushes over the polite people who went through their undies and how much safer they feel. "Feelings, nothing more than feelings..."
Then, when one of the rank-in-file runs into someone who doesn't drop to their knees in patriotic gratitude, the whole SOP stops and their only response is to become defensive and threatening...here, that amounts to "I'm taking my marbles and going home" playground behavior. In the real world, it means threats of being banned from flights and worse, simply for asking the identity of a particular screener. The corrupting influence of power can take all forms.
On flight days, my entire goal for travel is to have as little to do with the TSA as possible. I don't speak unless spoken to, I don't respond to socializing (you want me to socialize with you, become a bartender), my pockets are empty, my laptop is out, my jacket is off, I go through and never beep, I put up with the "continuous random wandings"...in other words, I do not cooperate, I simply comply...and I'm out of there fast!</font>
... Then the media interview some once-a-year traveler who gushes over the polite people who went through their undies and how much safer they feel. "Feelings, nothing more than feelings..."
Then, when one of the rank-in-file runs into someone who doesn't drop to their knees in patriotic gratitude, the whole SOP stops and their only response is to become defensive and threatening...here, that amounts to "I'm taking my marbles and going home" playground behavior. In the real world, it means threats of being banned from flights and worse, simply for asking the identity of a particular screener. The corrupting influence of power can take all forms.
On flight days, my entire goal for travel is to have as little to do with the TSA as possible. I don't speak unless spoken to, I don't respond to socializing (you want me to socialize with you, become a bartender), my pockets are empty, my laptop is out, my jacket is off, I go through and never beep, I put up with the "continuous random wandings"...in other words, I do not cooperate, I simply comply...and I'm out of there fast!</font>
Bolding of the quote added by me for emphasis.
Jan 15, 2003, 9:46 pm
#104
Join Date: Sep 2002
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
This is why you screeners hear mostly positive comments. I do the same thing when I go through. I am not looking to pick a fight (I am more than likely going to get one at the Rental Car Counter or the Hotel), nor am I looking to make a new best friend. I am simply looking to get out of the way as fast as possible so that I will not be pulled aside for "Random" Harassment.
Bolding of the quote added by me for emphasis.
</font>
This is why you screeners hear mostly positive comments. I do the same thing when I go through. I am not looking to pick a fight (I am more than likely going to get one at the Rental Car Counter or the Hotel), nor am I looking to make a new best friend. I am simply looking to get out of the way as fast as possible so that I will not be pulled aside for "Random" Harassment.
Bolding of the quote added by me for emphasis.
</font>
ditto here. I travel for leisure and the last thing I want, is my leisure time shortened because I didn't want to 'play the game' as the first GA I encountered after 9-11 referred to it.
Personally, I feel no difference where safety is concerned now than I did pre 9-11. My biggest concern is still present. That being, that I, being a logically minded person, don't understand how something so big manages to propel itself into the air, and stay up there. As such, if you ever happen to be on the same flight with me, you'll notice me clutching my St. Christopher medal, with fingers on both hands crossed, eyes shut, and chanting "Fly, fly, fly .... at take-off. I am fine with landing since it seems like a much simpiler process being that you have gravity on your side.
Terrorists, hijackings, pointy objects and the such have never concerned me bfore and they don't now. I'm more concerned, given the state of the world today, when I get in my car and go to the mall.
Jan 15, 2003, 10:34 pm
#105
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4
Spiff
You mention folks are harassed for "no probable cause." Remember, when you willingly enter a checkpoint, or present your baggage/carry on for inspection you have given implied consent for search. That goes for you and your belongings. This is case law from the U.S. Supreme Court.
You mention folks are harassed for "no probable cause." Remember, when you willingly enter a checkpoint, or present your baggage/carry on for inspection you have given implied consent for search. That goes for you and your belongings. This is case law from the U.S. Supreme Court.