aerobod

This article gives some of the reasons why international treaties are a problem for airlines operating in Canada when flying to other countries we have treaties with, if ownership is less than majority Canadian: https://theviewfromseven.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/why-100-foreign-ownership-of-the-major-airlines-is-on-hold-even-if-its-a-good-idea/

US airlines also have to be at least 75% US citizen owned (as a percentage of shares), also 2/3 of an airline's governing board and lead executive officers must be US citizens. It would be difficult to have a fully open airline market in North America without change in regulations in both Canada and the US, much like has been done in Europe.

Sopwith

@ aerobod:

I just booked my annual trip to OGG in January, in good faith, based on what is offered. I'm REALLY hoping I don't get Tealed. What are the chances?

aerobod

Highly unlikely, as it is not a route that has ULCC offerings. It is also unlikely that a route would be substituted directly, the ULCC needs to build it's own network. To be truly successful as a ULCC, low cost airports, fixed aircraft configurations in the highest possible density, simple automated systems for selling and airport experiences are all needed. In summary OGG is not a route that would be conducive to a ULCC, secondary airports such as YXX & YHM to sun destinations or secondary airport to secondary airport in Canada are really the routes that would have the necessary airport economics.

FlyerJ

"Highly unlikely" is somewhat comforting, but far from certain.

As mentioned previously, I already have travel booked with WS into 2018.

Aerobod: will WestJet provide certainty that customers with already-booked itineraries will not be offloaded onto the new LessJet?

As mentioned previously, I went through a series of utterly awful experiences when AC "Rouged" me multiple times. I really need a full assurance that won't happen again now that you've announced you're following a similar path.

Frankly, I'm not comfortable that my already-booked 2018 WS travel plans won't be affected, and I'm really not at all comfortable booking any future travel with you until there is a decisive answer.

aerobod

Unfortunately details aren't available yet and as made public, there won't be any ULCC flights until late this year, at the earliest. From a booking perspective, it is very difficult to change the offering after we have sold fares other than would be offered on a ULCC. The only easy (and proper) way to offer ULCC flights is to publish them into a new schedule. What we typically do is hold back a few aircraft from the winter or summer schedule to give us flexibility to launch new routes. Due to this holdback technique, it would only make sense to launch new ULCC routes with these aircraft and not contaminate the already sold WestJet flights in the schedules that had been published previously.

james dean

Why do you have the need to book so far in advance, I mean lots can change between now and 2018, schedules, routes, equipment etc, not being critical, just curious..??

FlyerJ

It's a family vacation, for a special occasion, over Christmas. Return date is in January. Flights all booked -- on WS. Accommodation already booked, and is not changeable.

As for other travel booked far in advance... We also own a timeshare through Westin, which has a one year window for booking. Since we usually book that for peak travel dates (like spring break) we typically book corresponding flights as soon as we confirm accommodation.

Business travel tends to only be booked weeks in advance, but sometimes months (ie for conferences) in advance. Business travel is one person on the company's dime, while family travel is four on my dime. When AC Rouged me (repeatedly), they messed up both personal and business travel that had been booked on mainline. The business travel was a PITA to resolve. The personal travel was a much bigger PITA to fix, and cost me extra out of my own pocket.

FlyerJ

That's great to hear, but again, I would like to have that "officially".

My cynicism is caused by your competitor, not you.

When they launched their ULCC, they did so with great fanfare and a lot of BS about how great the passenger experience would be in terms of both personal space and service. All complete fabrications.

And what you describe above as "very difficult" is exactly what they did. Mainline, full service bookings flipped over to Rouge bookings with limited notice, no apology, no compensation. After a customer uproar, they finally agreed to let customers have full refunds after a mainline-booked flight was converted to Rouge. They absolutely "changed the offering" after having sold specific fares.

Sopwith

I booked this week for January, intending to get our preferred exit row aisle seats. They were already gone for the outbound flight. You snooze, you lose.

Maybe FlyerJ booked them?

Sopwith

What FlyerJ said. I'm comforted but not completely confident.

24left

Interesting analysis from Cranky Flier.

WestJet Says It’s Starting an Ultra Low Cost Carrier

By CF on Apr 24, 2017

http://crankyflier.com/2017/04/24/we...-cost-carrier/

james dean

Ok, your travel planning sounds reasonable. All Airlines can and will modify their flight schedules, equipment and may even cancel routes due to poor economic performance, so while one can book that far in advance their is an associated risk, it may turn out that you will be "westjeted" if this ULCC business plan turns into reality which I doubt it will...

Frequentlander

Westjet has been fortunate enough to have a single domestic competitor that is more or less tone deaf to it’s customers. The “Rouging” fiasco when their off-brand Rouge was rolled out resulted in a number of business travelers switching at least some of their flying to WS. The value proposition from WS was, and until now continues to be “we are not AC”. People are willing to put up with a much smaller network, less frequent schedule and no alliance to “earn and burn” on. If there is a repeat of what AC did and passengers get “Tealed” by switching booked seats on mainline to “Westjet Lite” without any compensation, I predict that some of those premium flyers will look at switching back.

Flying for work is a chore. I choose WS for domestic because it’s a bit less of a chore than AC. I always buy Plus seats so would be (I think) be considered a good customer for WS to hang on to. If WS think they can take me for granted by selling me one thing and supplying something else, I will be reevaluating where I spend my money.

The assurances from Aerobod are good, but I suspect that when the accountants look at their spreadsheets and see that they may be able to squeeze a little more out of their passengers, the execution of the rollout may be different to what we all hope for.

james dean

I know a lot of folks were unhappy when YVR-LAX-YVR went to Rouge...read: no business class, but as it turns out Premium Rouge on the narrow body aircraft is pretty similar to mainline J-class. Now it's back to a mainline route anyway, not sure if all the complaining helped...

keitherson

Westjet is confusing as hell sometimes.

Is it a full-service, traditional carrier? No, because there's no business class, no business class lounges, no airline alliance, and no mileage-based accruals. Think: Alaska Airlines, which has a network and international partnerships similar to WestJet.

Is it a full-service, discount carrier, like Southwest? No, because WestJet charges for bags, charges for changing airline tickets.

Is it a no-frills, ultra discount carrier, like Spirit? No, because WestJet still gives you a free carry-on, free drinks and pretzels.

So what is it? It's kind of like JetBlue. Right now, JetBlue is trying to move into the traditional carrier space with their Mint product. And WestJet is trying to do the same with creating the new "Plus" Premium Economy product, new Silver/Gold WestJet Rewards tiers, and the new long-haul 767 services. But compared to Mint, Mosaic, and JetBlue's premium experience, it falls massively short.

To say launching a ULCC is premature would be an understatement. WestJet isn't even remotely close to being a premium carrier to be able to create a second airline that can differentiate between products without cannabalizing its own routes. That, or it will be a failed airline-within-an-airline, whose graveyard is already littered with many burned millions of dollars.

WestJet is doing things too quickly, which is very surprising, especially considering they have had a reputation for being overly conservative and cautious, a reason on how they managed to survive in the industry.

They are clearly feeling some pressure from the success of WOW Air and NewLeaf and want to replicate some of that. But I hope they don't lose focus on their main airline.