SWCPHX

We also had a Delta pilot pull a gun on their cockpit mate over a diversion. You can't screen for mental illness or intent very well. Is there really much of a difference between an untrained FA sitting in a pilot seat to satisfy two in the cockpit rule vs a Rockies coach? As long as both of them keep their hands to themselves and don't touch anything, not really IMHO.

With that being said, yes it was poor judgment to allow the Rockie's coach into the cockpit, but security or safety risk, ehhhhhh, not convinced.

Maxwell Smart

If, as was stated earlier, the charter operated under 121, this seems quite egregious, can't imagine what the pilots were thinking.

Less than 10 years ago I had the opportunity to fly in the jumpseat on an unnamed US-based airline widebody flight from the US to an international destination, and back a few days later, as part of my job to observe flight operations. There was extensive paperwork and coordination between the airline's operations folks as well as the FAA needed in advance. I met with the Captain and crew at the gate prior to departure, we went through the paperwork, etc. before I was permitted to board and access the flight deck. We then went through all the safety/security procedures I needed to be aware of. It was NOT something taken lightly by any parties. So what happened here boggles the mind.

In a direct analogy to this incident, I do have to say that a few years back, post-911 and outside the US, on a commercial flight, I did get the chance to sit in the Captain's seat for about 10 min mid-flight. I was in the jumpseat and the capt had to step out of the flight deck to speak to one of the cabin crew, and told me to just sit in his seat for a bit. The FO remained at the controls. As a (private) pilot myself I knew full well to be extra careful and not to even think about touching anything. Still one of the coolest experiences I've had.

And pre-911 I've had many a flight deck visit during flight, and several jumpseat experiences during landing. Most memorable was on a TATL widebody arriving into IAD (a very major international airline). Both pilots only had limited experience flying into the US; I was pointing out various landmarks during the approach, and at one point we were scolded by ATC for (far) exceeding the 250kt limit when below 10K feet! Things were certainly much more casual then.

JimInOhio

The question isn't Rockies coach vs an FA. It's any non-airline employee vs an FA. All crew members go through a rigorous selection and training process whereas a non-employee obviously doesn't. Frankly, I'm surprised you're trying to minimize if not completely dismiss this distinction.

SWCPHX

You completely glossed over the fact that crewmembers with authorization have been the direct problem of two very recent events. A DL pilot who supposedly was vetted as not just a pilot but an FFDO and the AS pilot taking 'shrooms. Not to mention the UA pilot who took an ax to the DEN parking arm. Or the UA pilot arrested at EDI for a Taser. Yeah, that whole vetting,.selection, and training is sure foolproof.

JimInOhio

No one ever said it's foolproof but, regardless, you're making the opposite case than what I think you're trying to make. If with all this training and evaluation a very few still get through or become untrusted, how many more would get through if there were no evaluations at all (such as with any non-airline employee)?

WineCountryUA

Who used the word foolproof, it is all about lessening the chance

elmira56925

but common folks like u and I would never given the opportunity. Double standards apply

SWCPHX

Why do you believe that the Rockies coach was a threat to safety? Simply because he wasn't authorized? My point simply is that being unauthorized isn't necessarily a risk to me. In fact, we've had recent instances of off duty pilots riding as SLf that helped land a WN plane and an Air Transat flight. Think the one remaining pilot on those flights had ANY time to even vet that person before they climbed into the chair? Think that probably broke a few company policies? What if those had just been cosplayers with a lot of Microsoft FlightSim time? Read the threads on bizarre behavior by FAs and you don't seem to worry about them because they're authorized crew?

WineCountryUA

First, having an open house in the flight deck is distracting, if an emergency did occur, it would reduce the response time. The flight desk is not made for having excess amateurs -- it a crowded space pilots need unrestricted access. .
While admitting screening is not perfect, it is better than none. I will take any extra improvement in areas having impact on human life.

Second, the pilots, in this case, ignore their training, ignored company policy and ignore regulations -- those are not attributes I want in a pilot and anyone responsible for my safety. While you may disagree, I am of the believer the training, policies and regulations (and technology).have improved safety.

This is all about decreasing the risk of something bad. We can argue if it improves by factor 10x or 100x or .... There is no way to argue having an open house improves / maintains the same level of safety.

If you think having an open house, no access restriction has no negative impact on safety, not sure there is a discussion we can have.

LarryJ

F/As are not allowed to sit in a control seat in flight. They sit on a jumpseat.

enviroian

Does one think these two pilots will be fired from UA and if so what are the chances of them getting jobs at DL, AA or other airlines?

Bear96

It is not about the Rockies coach.

That's not how this works.

Jeff767

They do sit in the pilot seat if the jumpseat is unavailable. Pilots seat is required to be all the way back.

physioprof

And to me, it seems vastly more likely that the two pilots exhibited horrendous collective judgment than that UA executives pushed this down from above... In particular, it reflects a severe lack of understanding of human decision making psychology to compute the probability of the two pilots agreeing on this decision as the product of the independent probabilities that each of them would make this decision on their own.

mfirst

mahzor - you mean like "boys being boys"?

also, judging from the random FT comments on this thread - I bet that, especially on charters (and those involving Pro athletes who are well known to be prima donnas and getting whatever they want, often without boundaries and a sense that the rules apply to them) that these types of things happen all of the time - but we just dont know of them... and we would not have known about this (much like many other acts of outrageous, immoral, illegal, behaviors) except someone thought it was "cool" to post on social media.