UA 767-300 N641UA structural damage after hard landing (has returned to service)
Aug 1, 2023, 9:04 pm
#16
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My question is how much of the blame falls on the pilot when considering this is United's oldest plane in the fleet? With United operating a handful of early 1990s aircraft, it makes me wonder how safe and airworthy these old frames actually are. I don't find it a coincidence that the oldest plane in the fleet wrinkled on a hard landing.
Aug 1, 2023, 9:36 pm
#17
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My question is how much of the blame falls on the pilot when considering this is United's oldest plane in the fleet? With United operating a handful of early 1990s aircraft, it makes me wonder how safe and airworthy these old frames actually are. I don't find it a coincidence that the oldest plane in the fleet wrinkled on a hard landing.
Aug 1, 2023, 9:41 pm
#18
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If you look upthread there is a link to the Aviation Herald story which explains what happened. It was a new 767 FO being supervised by a Line Check Airman. My bet is that the NTSB will conclude it was pilot error (new pilot on the aircraft or LCA not reacting fast enough), not a non-airworthy airframe.
Aug 1, 2023, 9:51 pm
#19
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I was watching a NG documentary recently. It discussed the whole commercial airlines industry is operating under stress at the moment.
Catering, IT, scheduling, ATC, operation dispatch and aircraft maintenance.
Shortage of planes has added pressure on getting spare parts to keep the planes flying more frequency than usual. Airlines just don’t have spare aircrafts for contingency.
Taking out a 763 permanently likely will cause ripple effects in the schedule. I am sure this 763 would be flying a number of long haul international flights in additional to the domestic hub-to-hub flights.
Catering, IT, scheduling, ATC, operation dispatch and aircraft maintenance.
Shortage of planes has added pressure on getting spare parts to keep the planes flying more frequency than usual. Airlines just don’t have spare aircrafts for contingency.
Taking out a 763 permanently likely will cause ripple effects in the schedule. I am sure this 763 would be flying a number of long haul international flights in additional to the domestic hub-to-hub flights.
Aug 1, 2023, 9:59 pm
#20
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If you look upthread there is a link to the Aviation Herald story which explains what happened. It was a new 767 FO being supervised by a Line Check Airman. My bet is that the NTSB will conclude it was pilot error (new pilot on the aircraft or LCA not reacting fast enough), not a non-airworthy airframe.
Aug 1, 2023, 10:16 pm
#21
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Aug 1, 2023, 10:52 pm
#22
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Edit: As of May 1, 2023 -- 125,209 hours and 19,408 cycles. N646UA was abruptly retired last year after finding metal corrosion with less hours and cycles. Just saying, the age could be a factor in the severity of the damage.
Last edited by zeus2120; Aug 1, 2023 at 11:15 pm
Aug 2, 2023, 12:15 am
#23
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According to one or two posters in the AV Herald thread, apparently this is a known weakness of 767 (763?). Maybe corrected, as 763F is still being produced, while no pax 767 is manufactured anymore.
But certainly not glossing over the metal fatigue factor either.
With continuing 787 delivery problems, I'm sure UA is not thrilled to have a widebody out of service
But certainly not glossing over the metal fatigue factor either.
With continuing 787 delivery problems, I'm sure UA is not thrilled to have a widebody out of service
Aug 2, 2023, 12:38 am
#24
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I will leave such conclusions to NTSB and qualified professionals as best qualified to make those determinations
Aug 2, 2023, 1:34 am
#25
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Of course what I'm saying is anecdotal. Hard landings happen every single day. It just so happens that the 32 year old 767, the oldest plane in the fleet, is the one that snapped. How many cycles are on that frame? How many hours? Metal fatigue is real and I'm wondering if that will end up factoring into any disciplinary action taken against the pilot.
Edit: As of May 1, 2023 -- 125,209 hours and 19,408 cycles. N646UA was abruptly retired last year after finding metal corrosion with less hours and cycles. Just saying, the age could be a factor in the severity of the damage.
Edit: As of May 1, 2023 -- 125,209 hours and 19,408 cycles. N646UA was abruptly retired last year after finding metal corrosion with less hours and cycles. Just saying, the age could be a factor in the severity of the damage.
Aug 2, 2023, 4:17 am
#26
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Aug 2, 2023, 6:58 am
#27
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Well, that's how people talk in real life when they are speaking about shocking, infrequent dramatic events that happen. Conjecture is a part of conversation. Sorry if you couldn't see through that.
Aug 2, 2023, 7:23 am
#28
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If you read the AV report, the FO on IOE likely did not follow the rotate procedure after TD, which apparently is a) different than other airframes, b) a known best practice technique w/ 763 landings.
If anyone subscribes even 1% to the metal fatigue theories as the root cause, please stop flying immediately. This is a structural issue, not a normal-load, repetitive-stress issue. Full stop.
If anyone subscribes even 1% to the metal fatigue theories as the root cause, please stop flying immediately. This is a structural issue, not a normal-load, repetitive-stress issue. Full stop.
Aug 2, 2023, 7:31 am
#29
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If you look upthread there is a link to the Aviation Herald story which explains what happened. It was a new 767 FO being supervised by a Line Check Airman. My bet is that the NTSB will conclude it was pilot error (new pilot on the aircraft or LCA not reacting fast enough), not a non-airworthy airframe.
Aug 2, 2023, 7:35 am
#30
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767 jets are prone to hard landings when a new/unskilled pilot is at the controls. I’ve had a few hard landings myself, but never bent metal.
On the other hand, once you know and learn to understand what the jet is telling you via good old fashioned “seat of the pants” flying, landings as “smooth as glass” are easily obtainable. Once that skill is mastered, easy-peasy.
Problem is, that subtle skill can’t be taught in ground school and can’t be learned in the simulator. It can only learned by experience.
I question the experience and skill of the line-check captain, who is there to specifically train newbies on the jet. Every model of jet has its own subtle personality (early 767-200’s were notorious for hard landings…. We called the -200, the “truck”), and it’s the LCA’s responsibility to impart that knowledge and skill that only experience can teach.
The LCA in this case should have seen this coming, and intervened. Perhaps he tried, but let the problem go too far before acting. Part of teaching aviation skills is to let the newbie make some mistakes so that he learns by experience. This mistake was allowed to go too far.
On the other hand, once you know and learn to understand what the jet is telling you via good old fashioned “seat of the pants” flying, landings as “smooth as glass” are easily obtainable. Once that skill is mastered, easy-peasy.
Problem is, that subtle skill can’t be taught in ground school and can’t be learned in the simulator. It can only learned by experience.
I question the experience and skill of the line-check captain, who is there to specifically train newbies on the jet. Every model of jet has its own subtle personality (early 767-200’s were notorious for hard landings…. We called the -200, the “truck”), and it’s the LCA’s responsibility to impart that knowledge and skill that only experience can teach.
The LCA in this case should have seen this coming, and intervened. Perhaps he tried, but let the problem go too far before acting. Part of teaching aviation skills is to let the newbie make some mistakes so that he learns by experience. This mistake was allowed to go too far.