qukslvr619

Airline "promises" are nothing more than PR spin aimed at getting thru legislative hurdles when we all know reality says otherwise. I'm saying this from an office located near the ghost town that is STL-Lambert; this city has yet to accept the fact that it will never be a major hub for an airline save for the largish operation that WN runs.

Granted I completely understand the argument for mid-size hubs, there is something to be said for not having to deal with the ORDs or ATLs, but the fact is that mid-size hubs are incredibly cyclical and tied to the economy of the market it is serving. Granted the TWA "shrink til we're profitable" strategy basically has shown that cities like CLE have to rely solely on the local markets once you start killing off larger connectivity opportunities. I'd argue that a city that has 150+ flights has a much higher chance of surviving than any focus/mini-hub city with >100 flights; once you get below >100 you really don't have banks to connect and have to focus on the local traffic. Any drop in that, or entry by LCCs, can really impact P/L and as the markets get pared back or dropped, the entire operation is left to fend of a few key markets that more or less are on death's door and if the local vs flow component is hovering at anything below 50%, then that's even more of a case for shutting it down. In the case of CLE, UA knew what they were doing; start stripping away the connectivity, rely on the local component, raise fares, and the results work in their favor. Even if they had tried to keep CLE at the same levels pre-merger, sure it could have been profitable....but it would have come at the expense of ORD/IAD/EWR. Nothing against CLE, but the reality is those markets are going to sustain and grow an airline far greater than CLE (or any mid-size hub for that matter); in the 90's they worked but with the advent of RJ's (and the high CASM) they effectively killed them off.

JimInOhio

CVG is a focus city because DL has focus cities. UA doesn't unless you want to call LAX a focus city (#3 carrier at less than 15% market share). CLE has higher passenger totals than CVG.

xliioper

It's not all about passenger totals and DL's corporate contracts and business traffic at CVG is likely the primary reason for it's focus city there. I don't see UA signing up for 14 gates at CLE back in 2016 and lasting until 2029 unless the long term intent at the time was to keep it as a focus city. It's clearly way more gates than they need for the current operation and it's a longtime to hold and pay for a bunch of gates that you don't need. For comparison, DL only negotiated a 5 year lease for their gates at CVG when they renewed back in 2015 (they are coming up for renegotiation this year). Seems more like UA's initial projections for CLE as a focus city simply didn't pan out rather than being adamantly opposed to focus cities.

nomad420

Just spoke with business associates in Cleveland who just told me the same thing so UA seems at least committed until then and that is quite some time. I was also told that they still control gates which even though requested they will not relinquish the lease and hold then vacant to block competition. The city and the operating port control I understand would love to have some of them back as they obviously want more flights into and out of Cleveland. So far since the CO merger UA doesn't seem to have done much for CLE.

JimInOhio

I can name a few DL focus cities but I can't name one for UA (other than maybe LAX but that's the largest airport in the USA by O/D traffic).

edit: They routinely use 12 of the gates, one of which they staff for AC.

ctownflyer

UA signed up for those gates to block competition. They had no intention of adding CLE flights.

PsiFighter37

This happened in 2016? Surprised it was that recent...wasn’t that after Jeffie was canned? Seems like a move he would do, not Oscar.

trk1

Remember that United at present has a major domestic aircraft shortage.They have been trying to play catch up for the since Scott came on board. At the end of 2019 they are down 34 planned 737 aircraft. On Wednesday current 2020 fleet plan will be announced but with no more new 737's could be down over 100 aircraft from the plan 9 months ago by the end of this year. 25 used 319 and 25 used 737's are arriving but at a slow pace as they were to supplement the new 737's. This has a direct effect on the build up of the Den/Ord/IAD hubs and Cle is affected by the aircraft shortage. The comments about gate squatting are made with no basis of fact. Cle to LGA and DCA have some of the lowest load factors in the system. The loads are very poor on AA and Delta as well. When you are short of aircraft and are moving express carriers across the system to help fill the gap you are going to make some decisions that make sense. AA has also made some system wide changes. DL does not have domestic equipment shortage. SW is also making major changes as this aircraft problem multiplies.

xliioper

There's no gate shortage at CLE, so that would be completely counterproductive and pointless. There's no one itching to start up new connecting hubs out there which require significant gate availability.

Often1

CVG and CLE are apples and oranges.

It's just about an hour flying time to two major *A hubs: ORD for UA and YYZ for AC. A hard sell to keep up nonstop when one can fly that hour and connect to pretty much all of the known world.

At the same time, both LGA and DCA are slot-controlled. The lower the PRASM for a flight, the less sense it makes to eat a slot for that rotation. Good example is UA's new semi-shuttle between DCA and EWR. Those six additional rotations had to come from somewhere and my guess is that when UA looked at the numbers, it became easy.

JimInOhio

YYZ is the closest of any hub to CLE but no one flies through there if they can avoid it. Nothing but Devil's Chariots, delays, and canceled flights.

nomad420

Believe what you want but for several years now the many Clevelanders have told me the same thing. UA got a sweet heart deal on the gates and won't give them up effectively blocking competition. FWIW I was told some of budget airlines are interested in CLE as a hub but I cannot point to any specific data or statements so I will state that it is hear-say.

dilanesp

It's worth noting this is common airline behavior. The federal government has had to get involved on more than one occasion to free up gates at airports.

mrmoo

Do ULLCs even have hubs? F9 did/does with DEN, but that was mostly because of legacy F9. Maybe some ULLCs would add more routes, but unlikely since the A concourse, where they operate, is very empty most of the time.

nomad420

Perhaps I should have said "hubs" to your point. But yes more likely just wanting to add more flights/routes out of CLE. Allegiant Air was mentioned as wanting to possible expand service out of CLE. Never flying out of A concourse (almost always C) I didn't realize how dead it was. Sad situation for CLE all around I guess.