Best Practices for Filing EU 261 Claims Against United? {Archive}
Aug 29, 2015, 1:55 am
#511
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Of course it does!
Aug 29, 2015, 5:14 pm
#512
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They should also have given you a form advising of the EU261 rights so if they didn't make sure to mention that too. Their first response will be to say that it is not covered if history is anything to go by.
Aug 29, 2015, 7:37 pm
#513
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Aug 30, 2015, 8:45 am
#514
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United never follows that rule IME. LH follows it sometimes.
Aug 30, 2015, 11:41 pm
#515
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SJC,SFO,OAK
Programs: WN,UA,AA,
Posts: 521
Just filed on UA website
Thank your for all info and feedback. I filed the EU261 claim. Now, I wait to see what happen.
Last edited by zzyzx; Sep 5, 2015 at 12:40 am Reason: typo
Sep 14, 2015, 9:16 am
#516
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 44
Unsure of compensation 'mode of attack'
Hello All,
I'm not sure how to approach United at this point and whether my flight should be covered under eu261.
My partner, MIL and myself had a flight scheduled from IAD-LHR that was supposed to leave at 9:25am on 9/5. We were informed as we arrived at the airport that there was a delay of 9 hours; although it 'could be less, so please stay in the airport.' Oddly enough, although i fly a decent amount on UA (Platinum), I've never had them cancel or delay me that much, so i'm not really well versed in the compensation rules.
The original flight would have gotten us into LHR at 9:55pm, this new flight got us in at 7:07am the next day. Since we had always planned to have four nights in London and three in Paris, I called United to see about rescheduling our whole trip by the one day. United rebooked me on a return flight one day later than originally planned. I explained that I would have to pay for an additional hotel night (since i couldn't reuse the one that would be missed) and that our original train tickets ($600 total) would need to be rebooked. She said that all of that would be reimbursable, i'd just need to send the receipts along with my request.
As you can guess, this all was happening pretty quickly while i had a partner and MIL (who never travel and have very little idea of what's going on in these cases) were pushing me to 'fix it.'
Anyway, all told, the extra hotel night and train tickets to 'fix it' were $1,800. I'm not trying to 'punish' United - i just want to be made whole here. They offered $175 vouchers to folks, but that's obviously not going to make it OK for me. I had never heard of the eu261 compensation until after all of this was finished.
So my questions:
1. Am I entitle to EU261? I can't quite gauge whether I am or not, since we were flying on United to a member state.
2. If I am, am i better off going that route as opposed to just submitting my travel expenses?
3. If I am not, is there a chance of them giving adequate compensation at all? Realistically, I wouldn't have rebooked all of this if it were not for the United person telling me that they'd pay for the expenses.
4. On our return flight, we were re-routed to DCA after our flight was delayed, causing us to miss the EWR-IAD connection. Therefore, I had to get a cab from DCA to IAD to pick up our car. Should i submit that as a totally separate claim/complaint or should i put it all together?
Thanks FT!
I'm not sure how to approach United at this point and whether my flight should be covered under eu261.
My partner, MIL and myself had a flight scheduled from IAD-LHR that was supposed to leave at 9:25am on 9/5. We were informed as we arrived at the airport that there was a delay of 9 hours; although it 'could be less, so please stay in the airport.' Oddly enough, although i fly a decent amount on UA (Platinum), I've never had them cancel or delay me that much, so i'm not really well versed in the compensation rules.
The original flight would have gotten us into LHR at 9:55pm, this new flight got us in at 7:07am the next day. Since we had always planned to have four nights in London and three in Paris, I called United to see about rescheduling our whole trip by the one day. United rebooked me on a return flight one day later than originally planned. I explained that I would have to pay for an additional hotel night (since i couldn't reuse the one that would be missed) and that our original train tickets ($600 total) would need to be rebooked. She said that all of that would be reimbursable, i'd just need to send the receipts along with my request.
As you can guess, this all was happening pretty quickly while i had a partner and MIL (who never travel and have very little idea of what's going on in these cases) were pushing me to 'fix it.'
Anyway, all told, the extra hotel night and train tickets to 'fix it' were $1,800. I'm not trying to 'punish' United - i just want to be made whole here. They offered $175 vouchers to folks, but that's obviously not going to make it OK for me. I had never heard of the eu261 compensation until after all of this was finished.
So my questions:
1. Am I entitle to EU261? I can't quite gauge whether I am or not, since we were flying on United to a member state.
2. If I am, am i better off going that route as opposed to just submitting my travel expenses?
3. If I am not, is there a chance of them giving adequate compensation at all? Realistically, I wouldn't have rebooked all of this if it were not for the United person telling me that they'd pay for the expenses.
4. On our return flight, we were re-routed to DCA after our flight was delayed, causing us to miss the EWR-IAD connection. Therefore, I had to get a cab from DCA to IAD to pick up our car. Should i submit that as a totally separate claim/complaint or should i put it all together?
Thanks FT!
Sep 14, 2015, 9:30 am
#517
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So my questions:
1. Am I entitle to EU261? I can't quite gauge whether I am or not, since we were flying on United to a member state.
2. If I am, am i better off going that route as opposed to just submitting my travel expenses?
3. If I am not, is there a chance of them giving adequate compensation at all? Realistically, I wouldn't have rebooked all of this if it were not for the United person telling me that they'd pay for the expenses.
4. On our return flight, we were re-routed to DCA after our flight was delayed, causing us to miss the EWR-IAD connection. Therefore, I had to get a cab from DCA to IAD to pick up our car. Should i submit that as a totally separate claim/complaint or should i put it all together?
1. Am I entitle to EU261? I can't quite gauge whether I am or not, since we were flying on United to a member state.
2. If I am, am i better off going that route as opposed to just submitting my travel expenses?
3. If I am not, is there a chance of them giving adequate compensation at all? Realistically, I wouldn't have rebooked all of this if it were not for the United person telling me that they'd pay for the expenses.
4. On our return flight, we were re-routed to DCA after our flight was delayed, causing us to miss the EWR-IAD connection. Therefore, I had to get a cab from DCA to IAD to pick up our car. Should i submit that as a totally separate claim/complaint or should i put it all together?
UA is unlikely to cover your consequential damages, i.e., hotel no-show, train rebooking, etc. In my experience, most hotels will waive no-show charges if you explain to them that your arrival is delayed due to a flight problem.
That said, the offered compensation seems light. A concise note to customer care is certainly in order.
And yes, they should reimburse your taxi from DCA to IAD. I would do that as a completely separate claim.
Sep 14, 2015, 9:34 am
#518
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You'd probably best read at least the basics of EU 261 before trying to file a claim under it. Particularly the part about it not applying to flights to the EU on UA. EU 261 applies only to international carriers when they are leaving the EU, only EU-based carriers have it applied both to and from the EU. The EU has no jurisdiction on non-EU carriers when they are operating outside of the territory.
You'll have to come up with a different plan.
You'll have to come up with a different plan.
Sep 14, 2015, 9:34 am
#519
Join Date: Mar 2012
Programs: Mileage Plus 1K; Marriott Platinum; Hilton Gold
Posts: 6,355
Unfortunately, EU 261 only applies to EU flag carriers on delays TO the EU. It applies to all carriers on delays FROM the EU.
So your IAD-LHR delay will not fall under EU 261.
I'm surprised that you got a commitment to pay for incidental expenses over the phone from a United agent. In my experience, they never reimburse such expenses directly.
You can expect a travel credit of around $150 - $250 per person for the major delay, which would be good for 12 months on another UA flight (not code share).
You might also be covered by travel insurance through your credit card, or if you purchased it directly.
UA is also unlikely to reimburse for the taxi from DCA-IAD. They sometimes give out a taxi voucher at the airport which bills directly to their account. The place to have obtained that was at either the baggage claim office or the ticket counter.
Sorry not to have more good news for you. Perhaps others will have more advice on how to crack the vault on UA compensation, but the trend has been downward in recent years.
So your IAD-LHR delay will not fall under EU 261.
I'm surprised that you got a commitment to pay for incidental expenses over the phone from a United agent. In my experience, they never reimburse such expenses directly.
You can expect a travel credit of around $150 - $250 per person for the major delay, which would be good for 12 months on another UA flight (not code share).
You might also be covered by travel insurance through your credit card, or if you purchased it directly.
UA is also unlikely to reimburse for the taxi from DCA-IAD. They sometimes give out a taxi voucher at the airport which bills directly to their account. The place to have obtained that was at either the baggage claim office or the ticket counter.
Sorry not to have more good news for you. Perhaps others will have more advice on how to crack the vault on UA compensation, but the trend has been downward in recent years.
Sep 18, 2015, 4:14 pm
#520
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: BUR/LAX
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Posts: 2,505
On 9/17/15, the European Court of Justice clarified that mechanical problems cannot be considered "extraordinary circumstances":http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/d...cp150105en.pdf
Sep 21, 2015, 10:49 am
#521
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 205
United Refusing Valid EC 261 Claim - Options?
Hi guys,
Facts: My flight from BCN to EWR was delayed over 3 hours due to "Operational difficulties". I wrote to United for compensation under EC 261, but they claimed force majeure. They offered $150 (each) in vouchers, which I am not inclined to accept. I offered to settle for sake of convenience, but the airline did not engage.
As it so happens, the European Court of Justice ruled last week on a case involving KLM that *any* maintenance issue (even if outside of scheduled maintenance) is not a valid excuse to deny compensation under EC 261 (exactly the issue in this case). I pointed this out to United, but they ignored this and basically told me to buzz off. Clearly the customer service rep has little decision making or legal interpretation authority, so that is what it is.
I see my claim as no different from the airline charging a change fee - its part of the contract. Delays have to be treated per established law, and I am merely seeking to enforce my rights. For what its worth, the monetary impact is not meaningful enough to make any real difference to my happiness.
The email exchange is pasted below (removing personally identifying info).
Would appreciate any suggestion how to proceed.
Thanks
IaLTO
Dear Mr. aaa:
We appreciate the final opportunity to address your concerns regarding your recent flight. After further review, we again found that United Airlines complied with all of the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.
We truly regret any inconvenience you may have incurred while traveling with us. It is our sincere desire to move forward in our business relationship with you, and we realize that you have a choice of carriers. We will consider this matter closed and will no longer correspond regarding this issue, but invite you to contact us again if we may address a future travel-related issue.
Given the opportunity to welcome you aboard, we are confident your next experience will warrant a much more favorable report.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi ccc,
I appreciate your efforts to be responsive in this matter.
Respectfully, your interpretation is not valid especially after the ruling TODAY (Sept 17) by European Court of Justice (EU's top court). The court affirmed that technical issues (as mentioned by you are) in fact not a valid excuse (Please see below). This ruling is final and non-appealable.
You are welcome to re-consult with your legal department in this regard - they may still be getting up to speed on this given that this final ruling came just today.
This ruling is directly applicable to the circumstances in our situation. Again, I am only trying to ensure what is rightfully due is claimed. I am unable to accept your highly discounted offer due to the releases implied therein. In fact, you would agree that my previous offer to settle appears generous in light of the latest ruling.
Happy to discuss this further with you or someone from your legal department. I hope we can resolve this ASAP.
Warm Regards,
aaa
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/h...assengers.html
------------------------
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Other ( )
Dear Mr. aaa:
We have again reviewed your request for cash compensation and found that we complied with all the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.
I understand that the delay was, at best, very frustrating and truly regret you were disappointed. Please let me explain why cash compensation is not applicable under European Regulation EC261/2004. Because all routine preventative maintenance actions were performed on the aircraft as scheduled, and the extended delay could not have been reasonably predicted or avoided, the event is considered force majeure and exclusionary to the mandatory compensation rules.
Please know that our legal department carefully reviews each of these matters with our system and technical operations groups to ensure we are in full compliance with the appropriate legal standards. Although the cause of the irregularity was extraordinary and unable to be avoided, we did what we could to minimize it, and have nothing further to advise at this point.
Because we do recognize that your flight plans were negatively impacted,
as a tangible gesture of our regret, we sent you an electronic travel certificate valid toward a discount on a future United Airlines flight.
Although additional compensation is not forthcoming, we appreciate your continued loyalty to United, and hope to see your aboard a future United flight again soon.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi ccc,
Thanks for your reply.
I went back and looked at the regulation again, and legal precedence set by decided cases associated with the regulation makes it clear that "outside the control of the airline" is defined in a very narrow sense (e.g. weather). Maintenance or crew related issues are not a valid reason to deny application of the law (please review Sturgeon v Condor C-402/07, and Bock v Air France C-432/07, in the Fourth Chamber of the Court of Justice).
Based on the facts, the law is certainly applicable in this case, and cash compensation of Euro600/person is due ($680 at current FX rate).
That said, given I fly United a bunch, and the chaos was not massive I am willing to be flexible here and would be willing to accept alternate form of compensation and in a somewhat reduced amount ($500?). Hope you find this reasonable suggestion acceptable.
Regards
aaa
------------------------
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Other ( )
Dear Mr. aaa:
We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience you experienced when your recent flight was delayed.
Prior to departure, an unexpected safety shortcoming beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft originally scheduled for your flight. I regret it took so long to resolve the issue and get you on your way. Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority.
We recognize that how we respond to unplanned delays is vital in keeping your trust. Those passengers who would miss planned connections were rebooked on alternate onward flights.
Although cash compensation under Regulation EC261/2004 is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected. In appreciation for your patience during this extraordinary delay, we have requested an electronic travel certificate be emailed to you both. It is valid for one year from the date of issue toward the purchase of a ticket on United or United Express operated flights for the passenger of your choice.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you on board a future United flight.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Facts: My flight from BCN to EWR was delayed over 3 hours due to "Operational difficulties". I wrote to United for compensation under EC 261, but they claimed force majeure. They offered $150 (each) in vouchers, which I am not inclined to accept. I offered to settle for sake of convenience, but the airline did not engage.
As it so happens, the European Court of Justice ruled last week on a case involving KLM that *any* maintenance issue (even if outside of scheduled maintenance) is not a valid excuse to deny compensation under EC 261 (exactly the issue in this case). I pointed this out to United, but they ignored this and basically told me to buzz off. Clearly the customer service rep has little decision making or legal interpretation authority, so that is what it is.
I see my claim as no different from the airline charging a change fee - its part of the contract. Delays have to be treated per established law, and I am merely seeking to enforce my rights. For what its worth, the monetary impact is not meaningful enough to make any real difference to my happiness.
The email exchange is pasted below (removing personally identifying info).
Would appreciate any suggestion how to proceed.
Thanks
IaLTO
Dear Mr. aaa:
We appreciate the final opportunity to address your concerns regarding your recent flight. After further review, we again found that United Airlines complied with all of the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.
We truly regret any inconvenience you may have incurred while traveling with us. It is our sincere desire to move forward in our business relationship with you, and we realize that you have a choice of carriers. We will consider this matter closed and will no longer correspond regarding this issue, but invite you to contact us again if we may address a future travel-related issue.
Given the opportunity to welcome you aboard, we are confident your next experience will warrant a much more favorable report.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi ccc,
I appreciate your efforts to be responsive in this matter.
Respectfully, your interpretation is not valid especially after the ruling TODAY (Sept 17) by European Court of Justice (EU's top court). The court affirmed that technical issues (as mentioned by you are) in fact not a valid excuse (Please see below). This ruling is final and non-appealable.
You are welcome to re-consult with your legal department in this regard - they may still be getting up to speed on this given that this final ruling came just today.
This ruling is directly applicable to the circumstances in our situation. Again, I am only trying to ensure what is rightfully due is claimed. I am unable to accept your highly discounted offer due to the releases implied therein. In fact, you would agree that my previous offer to settle appears generous in light of the latest ruling.
Happy to discuss this further with you or someone from your legal department. I hope we can resolve this ASAP.
Warm Regards,
aaa
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/h...assengers.html
------------------------
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Other ( )
Dear Mr. aaa:
We have again reviewed your request for cash compensation and found that we complied with all the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.
I understand that the delay was, at best, very frustrating and truly regret you were disappointed. Please let me explain why cash compensation is not applicable under European Regulation EC261/2004. Because all routine preventative maintenance actions were performed on the aircraft as scheduled, and the extended delay could not have been reasonably predicted or avoided, the event is considered force majeure and exclusionary to the mandatory compensation rules.
Please know that our legal department carefully reviews each of these matters with our system and technical operations groups to ensure we are in full compliance with the appropriate legal standards. Although the cause of the irregularity was extraordinary and unable to be avoided, we did what we could to minimize it, and have nothing further to advise at this point.
Because we do recognize that your flight plans were negatively impacted,
as a tangible gesture of our regret, we sent you an electronic travel certificate valid toward a discount on a future United Airlines flight.
Although additional compensation is not forthcoming, we appreciate your continued loyalty to United, and hope to see your aboard a future United flight again soon.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi ccc,
Thanks for your reply.
I went back and looked at the regulation again, and legal precedence set by decided cases associated with the regulation makes it clear that "outside the control of the airline" is defined in a very narrow sense (e.g. weather). Maintenance or crew related issues are not a valid reason to deny application of the law (please review Sturgeon v Condor C-402/07, and Bock v Air France C-432/07, in the Fourth Chamber of the Court of Justice).
Based on the facts, the law is certainly applicable in this case, and cash compensation of Euro600/person is due ($680 at current FX rate).
That said, given I fly United a bunch, and the chaos was not massive I am willing to be flexible here and would be willing to accept alternate form of compensation and in a somewhat reduced amount ($500?). Hope you find this reasonable suggestion acceptable.
Regards
aaa
------------------------
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Other ( )
Dear Mr. aaa:
We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience you experienced when your recent flight was delayed.
Prior to departure, an unexpected safety shortcoming beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft originally scheduled for your flight. I regret it took so long to resolve the issue and get you on your way. Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority.
We recognize that how we respond to unplanned delays is vital in keeping your trust. Those passengers who would miss planned connections were rebooked on alternate onward flights.
Although cash compensation under Regulation EC261/2004 is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected. In appreciation for your patience during this extraordinary delay, we have requested an electronic travel certificate be emailed to you both. It is valid for one year from the date of issue toward the purchase of a ticket on United or United Express operated flights for the passenger of your choice.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you on board a future United flight.
Regards,
ccc
Corporate Customer Care
United Airlines
Sep 21, 2015, 11:01 am
#522
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: None - previously UA
Posts: 4,894
The next step is to file a complaint with the national enforcement body of the state your flight departed from.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...ent_bodies.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes...ent_bodies.pdf
Sep 21, 2015, 11:06 am
#523
Join Date: Feb 2014
Programs: Amex Plat, Hilton Diamond, SPG Gold, Carlson Gold, CM Presidential / *A Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 1,651
Take the vouchers. 261 in this case is for 4+ hours
Sep 21, 2015, 11:26 am
#525
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Honolulu Harbor
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 15,067
I doubt UA can react to the new ruling as fast as it should. You'll eventually get compensation but it will take time for UA to work the ruling into its compensation system and you'll have to keep after it.
Aside from that, I can see airfares ex-EU climbing to cover the costs of such compensation. For people travelling on OPM, that's fine.
American carriers like UA may be at risk to be hurt slightly more by EU261 rules TATL because of US vs EU hubs (eg BA is more likely to find an extra plane at LHR than UA would be in an IRROPS situation).
Aside from that, I can see airfares ex-EU climbing to cover the costs of such compensation. For people travelling on OPM, that's fine.
American carriers like UA may be at risk to be hurt slightly more by EU261 rules TATL because of US vs EU hubs (eg BA is more likely to find an extra plane at LHR than UA would be in an IRROPS situation).
Last edited by IAH-OIL-TRASH; Sep 21, 2015 at 11:33 am