Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)
The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)
1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.
4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.
5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.
If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.
Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muñoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
Apr 24, 2017, 10:23 pm
#6496
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Independent! But mostly BKK, BCN, SFO, PDX, SEA...
Programs: Lawl COVID
Posts: 1,060
It is not an issue of Union bashing. The union is there to negotiate a labour contract and work on creating a positive work environment for its members.
The problem is the response from the union is focused on saying:
- "UA and its employees are not responsible for what happened. We are the victim. Our people are first responders to any problem and are here for the safety of our passengers."
While at the same time:
- There is a passenger bleeding from his head, that has some seriouse medical issues now and needed to spend several days in the hospital. All because of his interaction with United and the people united brought into the situation.
Had the union said Something went wrong, this should not happen to one of our passengers and we are committed to collaborating with United management to ensure it never happens again most people would have responded differently.
The problem is the response from the union is focused on saying:
- "UA and its employees are not responsible for what happened. We are the victim. Our people are first responders to any problem and are here for the safety of our passengers."
While at the same time:
- There is a passenger bleeding from his head, that has some seriouse medical issues now and needed to spend several days in the hospital. All because of his interaction with United and the people united brought into the situation.
Had the union said Something went wrong, this should not happen to one of our passengers and we are committed to collaborating with United management to ensure it never happens again most people would have responded differently.
We already have historical evidence that United top brass are eager to throw anyone under the bus to make themselves look less bad (can't even say 'good' because they're so horrible at doing it.) Their response is to get in front of United before United trashes them in things like this.
Not saying it's right, as your suggestion would be a much better way of handling it, but I can understand why the unions reacted this way.
Apr 25, 2017, 4:31 am
#6497
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: United Plat 2MM, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,727
The reports, released Monday in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by the Los Angeles Times and others, contradict videos of the incident caught by fellow passengers on their cellphones and viewed by millions of people worldwide.
Apr 25, 2017, 5:07 am
#6498
Join Date: Jan 2014
Programs: Amtrak Guest Rewards (SE), Virgin America Elevate, Hyatt Gold Passport (Platinum), VIA Preference
Posts: 3,134
I dunno...did you see Demetrio's interview on Today this morning? I think the ship on a quick settlement has sailed or will be sailing very soon. Already, he's communicated that Dao believes a public, face-to-face apology by Muñoz is worthless.
My call: IF they settle, it'll be in the mid- to high eight-figures. If papers get filed, it's going to nine.
My call: IF they settle, it'll be in the mid- to high eight-figures. If papers get filed, it's going to nine.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
Apr 25, 2017, 7:09 am
#6499
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,231
For a settlement demand at those levels UA would probably be better off "going limp" on the case: Push it into court ASAP, offer a pro forma defense, and then just take whatever the jury throws at them (perhaps with a single round of appeal if it's absurd). Tort limitations in many states would put a cap on it and there does come a point where it is easier to just eat the bad PR. I'd argue that most of the damage has been done at this point (even if it sticks around in the medium term) and at some point it would make more sense for UA to just cut service to the far east (maybe doing some sort of complicated route swap with their *A partners or other airlines) rather than settling.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
The PR cost to United, and to the industry in general, would be staggering. They need this story to go away asap.
Apr 25, 2017, 7:14 am
#6500
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,436
The reports, released Monday in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by the Los Angeles Times and others, contradict videos of the incident caught by fellow passengers on their cellphones and viewed by millions of people worldwide.
The aviation department also released its use of force policy, which was sent to all officers after the incident. It says aviation security personnel should use force only when "reasonably necessary to defend a human life, effect an arrest or control a person," and that the force used "shall only be that which is necessary to overcome the resistance being offered by an offender and to effect lawful objectives."
Apr 25, 2017, 8:27 am
#6501
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,129
I'm sure the Chicago Department of Aviation Security personnel had body cams or other video that will back up their assertions that Dr. DAO acted in the manner described in the official report which was given under duress. Also interesting that two of the City of Chicago Department of Aviation responders had been disciplined previously.
Apr 25, 2017, 8:48 am
#6502
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: CO
Programs: UA OG-1K, Marriott Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 1,360
Dollar$$$$$$$$$$$$. 
^ 
Mock me if that helps you feel better about yourselves. Couldn't care less. Biut ask yourselves: exactly what about this whole mess has made any sense at all?
Demetrio already basically said the suit is on in the Today interview. Sure, it could all change and United could give Dao an offer he can't refuse. But I find that less and less likely with every passing day. This is the quiet before the blast. Mark my words.
Another poster here has already estimated a suit in the hundreds of millions. Dao has given no inclination that he plans to walk away from this for pennies. And he is letting Demetrio do all the talking.
He probably won't get nine digits off the suit if he wins. But I bet that's where it'll start.
^ Mock me if that helps you feel better about yourselves. Couldn't care less. Biut ask yourselves: exactly what about this whole mess has made any sense at all?
Demetrio already basically said the suit is on in the Today interview. Sure, it could all change and United could give Dao an offer he can't refuse. But I find that less and less likely with every passing day. This is the quiet before the blast. Mark my words.
Another poster here has already estimated a suit in the hundreds of millions. Dao has given no inclination that he plans to walk away from this for pennies. And he is letting Demetrio do all the talking.
He probably won't get nine digits off the suit if he wins. But I bet that's where it'll start.
Try the case in downtown Chicago, who knows what a jury will do, but that is where the appeals always seems to bring some rationality.
I know of a woman that F9 pulled the jet bridge back on while boarding and she fell to the tarmac. That didn't even make google searches.
Apr 25, 2017, 9:08 am
#6503
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SEA
Programs: Delta TDK(or care)WIA, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,869
For a settlement demand at those levels UA would probably be better off "going limp" on the case: Push it into court ASAP, offer a pro forma defense, and then just take whatever the jury throws at them (perhaps with a single round of appeal if it's absurd). Tort limitations in many states would put a cap on it and there does come a point where it is easier to just eat the bad PR. I'd argue that most of the damage has been done at this point (even if it sticks around in the medium term) and at some point it would make more sense for UA to just cut service to the far east (maybe doing some sort of complicated route swap with their *A partners or other airlines) rather than settling.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 25, 2017 at 10:27 am Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member -- please use multi-quote
Apr 25, 2017, 9:36 am
#6504
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,129
I agree with your assessment, and I think the settlement value is more than the amount of a likely verdict. A verdict doesn't take into account the cost of the publicity to UA. It would be valuable to UA to get this done and over, with any actual trial being between them and the mall police. They would be the sympathetic party in a case like that.
A settlement would give UA the opportunity to not admit guilt. With a settlement United could be in some control of the final settlement language.
There is also the possibility that a jury would find UA innocent and lay the blame on City of Chicago or find no guilt at all.
Does UA roll the dice or take a negotiated sure thing?
Apr 25, 2017, 9:53 am
#6505
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Programs: CoUniHound 1K 1MM, AA EXP 2MM, DL Plat, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 1,625
Talk about settlement figures assumes that the point of the suit is to maximize Dr. Dao's payout. I doubt that's what his legal team is trying to do. Instead, they are using the suit to change behavior. A large settlement won't change United as much as a long, drawn-out, ugly PR disaster of a suit. This isn't going to be settled.
Apr 25, 2017, 10:11 am
#6506
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
Another poster here has already estimated a suit in the hundreds of millions. Dao has given no inclination that he plans to walk away from this for pennies. And he is letting Demetrio do all the talking.
He probably won't get nine digits off the suit if he wins. But I bet that's where it'll start.
He probably won't get nine digits off the suit if he wins. But I bet that's where it'll start.
Multiplied by 10, the MAX would be something like $10-15M.
If Dao were go get an award higher than that, it would be reversed on appeal, and worse, Dao might have to retry the case, which would push up his costs.
For a settlement demand at those levels UA would probably be better off "going limp" on the case: Push it into court ASAP, offer a pro forma defense, and then just take whatever the jury throws at them (perhaps with a single round of appeal if it's absurd). Tort limitations in many states would put a cap on it and there does come a point where it is easier to just eat the bad PR. I'd argue that most of the damage has been done at this point (even if it sticks around in the medium term) and at some point it would make more sense for UA to just cut service to the far east (maybe doing some sort of complicated route swap with their *A partners or other airlines) rather than settling.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
I figure that low eight figures from UA is an outside result for Dr. Dao. Combined with Chicago I could see it getting there but from UA alone I'm thinking that he'll probably get a low-seven-figures settlement.
United followed Federal Law, and while changing that law is up to the Federal Government, we realize our policy was not customer friendly, and we have changed that. The issue for you is not if our policy was good/bad, we have changed it, the issue for you is how much Dao was damaged. We do not deny Dao was hurt in this incident, but he is also partially at fault for his injuries. Your job is not to act as a slot machine for Dao, but to fairly decide what the losses of this 69 yo man, who was working one day a week on a suspended medical license, only seeing patients with supervision, and then figure out how much of his damages are his own fault, not United's. And note that we have already rebated his ticket price and offered to as a customer service gesture pay his medical bills, so are not contesting those, although we do not admit that all of those bills are our fault. We just ask you to be fair and take all facts into consideration.
This is against every single best practice for PR - a public trial dragging UA through the mud every day for weeks? The likelihood for a multi million dollar verdict? There is absolutely no way this is going to trial - they will write Dr Dao a big check, big enough to keep it out of court, even if that check is near the amount of a projected jury award.
The PR cost to United, and to the industry in general, would be staggering. They need this story to go away asap.
The PR cost to United, and to the industry in general, would be staggering. They need this story to go away asap.
I agree with your assessment, and I think the settlement value is more than the amount of a likely verdict. A verdict doesn't take into account the cost of the publicity to UA. It would be valuable to UA to get this done and over, with any actual trial being between them and the mall police. They would be the sympathetic party in a case like that.
Apr 25, 2017, 12:03 pm
#6507
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: New York
Programs: MB-LTT , HH-Diam., HGP-Expl.
Posts: 778
Punitive damages are rarely imposed unless there was intent to cause harm. Carelessness or negligence may not qualify. The Supreme Court has ruled that a ratio of 4:1 is problematic and a ratio of 10:1 is almost certainly unconstitutional. In any case, the statutory limit in Illinois is 3:1.
Apr 25, 2017, 12:04 pm
#6508
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,722
Personally I hope that Dr. Dao drags them through a trial but any savvy trial lawyer (his current counsel included) would advise him to take the money. Litigation is always risky.
Apr 25, 2017, 12:10 pm
#6509
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Independent! But mostly BKK, BCN, SFO, PDX, SEA...
Programs: Lawl COVID
Posts: 1,060
This case has a maximum value. It is compensatory damages x 10 for punative damages. There is no way that Dao gets more. And he does not get his fees or costs, he pays them. His "compensatory damages" are (a) his medical costs, (b) what he paid for his ticket, (c) any lost wages, (d) any incidental costs as a result of the accident, and (e) his pain and suffering. The items up to (e) will not be more than $250K, unless they can show some kind of permanent neurological damage, which I think is highly unlikely, and I have heard no mention of anywhere. And what you can get for "pain and suffering" is restricted by prior cases, there is no way that an award of more than $1M-$1.5M gets upheld on appeal, and I think those numbers are high.
Multiplied by 10, the MAX would be something like $10-15M.
If Dao were go get an award higher than that, it would be reversed on appeal, and worse, Dao might have to retry the case, which would push up his costs.
Multiplied by 10, the MAX would be something like $10-15M.
If Dao were go get an award higher than that, it would be reversed on appeal, and worse, Dao might have to retry the case, which would push up his costs.
I get the feeling that he wants to teach United a very expensive lesson, so he is going to push his compensatory damages as skyward as he can get them.
Even if Dao washes out on the whole thing, the cost to United of a long, dragged out trial will be damn near epic.
Last edited by FiveMileFinal; Apr 25, 2017 at 12:21 pm
Apr 25, 2017, 12:12 pm
#6510
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA Advantage
Posts: 11
The price of silence
This case has a maximum value. It is compensatory damages x 10 for punative damages. There is no way that Dao gets more. And he does not get his fees or costs, he pays them. His "compensatory damages" are (a) his medical costs, (b) what he paid for his ticket, (c) any lost wages, (d) any incidental costs as a result of the accident, and (e) his pain and suffering. The items up to (e) will not be more than $250K, unless they can show some kind of permanent neurological damage, which I think is highly unlikely, and I have heard no mention of anywhere. And what you can get for "pain and suffering" is restricted by prior cases, there is no way that an award of more than $1M-$1.5M gets upheld on appeal, and I think those numbers are high.
Multiplied by 10, the MAX would be something like $10-15M.
If Dao were go get an award higher than that, it would be reversed on appeal, and worse, Dao might have to retry the case, which would push up his costs.
UA could chose to just challange damages, and go in to the Jury (and in its public statements) and say something like:
United followed Federal Law, and while changing that law is up to the Federal Government, we realize our policy was not customer friendly, and we have changed that. The issue for you is not if our policy was good/bad, we have changed it, the issue for you is how much Dao was damaged. We do not deny Dao was hurt in this incident, but he is also partially at fault for his injuries. Your job is not to act as a slot machine for Dao, but to fairly decide what the losses of this 69 yo man, who was working one day a week on a suspended medical license, only seeing patients with supervision, and then figure out how much of his damages are his own fault, not United's. And note that we have already rebated his ticket price and offered to as a customer service gesture pay his medical bills, so are not contesting those, although we do not admit that all of those bills are our fault. We just ask you to be fair and take all facts into consideration.
I agree with you, UA will offer (or should offer) close to the Max damages that Dao can realistically get. That is not a figure in the low 7 figures, it is a figure in the mid to high 7 figures, perhaps even $10M. It is not higher. Higher numbers than that, and United is better to admit partial fault and just try the case on damages.
The case will be in Federal Court, which is not so Plaintiff friendly (Jury comes from all of the ND of Ill) and any appeal would be to the 7th Cir. Demeteo knows this, and it will limit what he can demand.
I agree the settlement value is more than the likely verdict. Which is why it will settle.
Multiplied by 10, the MAX would be something like $10-15M.
If Dao were go get an award higher than that, it would be reversed on appeal, and worse, Dao might have to retry the case, which would push up his costs.
UA could chose to just challange damages, and go in to the Jury (and in its public statements) and say something like:
United followed Federal Law, and while changing that law is up to the Federal Government, we realize our policy was not customer friendly, and we have changed that. The issue for you is not if our policy was good/bad, we have changed it, the issue for you is how much Dao was damaged. We do not deny Dao was hurt in this incident, but he is also partially at fault for his injuries. Your job is not to act as a slot machine for Dao, but to fairly decide what the losses of this 69 yo man, who was working one day a week on a suspended medical license, only seeing patients with supervision, and then figure out how much of his damages are his own fault, not United's. And note that we have already rebated his ticket price and offered to as a customer service gesture pay his medical bills, so are not contesting those, although we do not admit that all of those bills are our fault. We just ask you to be fair and take all facts into consideration.
I agree with you, UA will offer (or should offer) close to the Max damages that Dao can realistically get. That is not a figure in the low 7 figures, it is a figure in the mid to high 7 figures, perhaps even $10M. It is not higher. Higher numbers than that, and United is better to admit partial fault and just try the case on damages.
The case will be in Federal Court, which is not so Plaintiff friendly (Jury comes from all of the ND of Ill) and any appeal would be to the 7th Cir. Demeteo knows this, and it will limit what he can demand.
I agree the settlement value is more than the likely verdict. Which is why it will settle.
The damage to their reputation and bottom line could go well over 200 million.
1) They must protect the airlines secrets that allow them to take advantage of the customer. Going to trial will bring all of these into higher level of scrutiny. Overbooking, IVDB, passengers almost having no rights. If any of these things changed they would loose a lot more. THEY CANT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.
2) The court determines that the attendant actually had no right to ask people on plane to leave. They get a ton of other people who this has happened too and bring them in to testify. Now we are in class action area which will lead to the big case 400-500 million. THEY CANT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.
3) Very long public trials bring out the worst in corporations. The PR would be brutal.