Is United quoting wrong reasons for delay? How is the reason determined?
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Is United quoting wrong reasons for delay? How is the reason determined?
Last night I was on a PIT-ORD UX flight connecting to my mainline flight to SFO. Due to ORD traffic management we were given a 1.5 hour delay which was eventually cut down to 13 minutes - so we were expecting an almost on time arrival.
After we closed the door, we had to sit there for 45 minutes and reopen the plane for the GA to come back on and manually verify passengers against the manifest one by one as the counts didn't match. The issue ended up being a nonrev in the last row who had somehow cancelled their res and then boarded, messing up the count.
Upon arriving at ORD I was already within 15 minutes of my departure, which showed on time upon landing (we were told to check via our apps as the crew for some reason couldn't get us connection info) and needed to shuttle to the other terminal. So I went straight to the desk. I was later told UA held the plane for a few minutes...but didn't tell us, negating the nice customer service gesture.
At the desk I was rebooked for a 7a flight in E- (down from F) and then told I was not eligible for a hotel room as the delay was ATC. Despite telling what happened multiple times, as a passenger on the plane I was told I was wrong and that in fact we pushed 7 minutes late and arrived 58 minutes late but it was due to ATC, so no hotel. To dispute that I was told to go online with their 3 week response times.
Fortunately, I did go to anther concourse and get a new rep (still wearing a tulip badge) to issue me a hotel voucher for a few hours sleep. I'm now waiting for my downgraded flight home.
How common is this misquoting of delays, and what can I do to dispute it now and in the future more effectively argue it at the service desk?
After we closed the door, we had to sit there for 45 minutes and reopen the plane for the GA to come back on and manually verify passengers against the manifest one by one as the counts didn't match. The issue ended up being a nonrev in the last row who had somehow cancelled their res and then boarded, messing up the count.
Upon arriving at ORD I was already within 15 minutes of my departure, which showed on time upon landing (we were told to check via our apps as the crew for some reason couldn't get us connection info) and needed to shuttle to the other terminal. So I went straight to the desk. I was later told UA held the plane for a few minutes...but didn't tell us, negating the nice customer service gesture.
At the desk I was rebooked for a 7a flight in E- (down from F) and then told I was not eligible for a hotel room as the delay was ATC. Despite telling what happened multiple times, as a passenger on the plane I was told I was wrong and that in fact we pushed 7 minutes late and arrived 58 minutes late but it was due to ATC, so no hotel. To dispute that I was told to go online with their 3 week response times.
Fortunately, I did go to anther concourse and get a new rep (still wearing a tulip badge) to issue me a hotel voucher for a few hours sleep. I'm now waiting for my downgraded flight home.
How common is this misquoting of delays, and what can I do to dispute it now and in the future more effectively argue it at the service desk?
#2
Join Date: Mar 2012
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This has been reported ad nauseum. During IRROPS caused by weather, UA can and will use "weather" as cover to mask the real reason for any delays. Disingenuous, but you are certainly not the first victim of this.
#3
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
The "out" time is when the breaks are released after all doors were closed for the final time. How did the CS rep get off the plane after 7 min but before 45 min if the doors were closed and not re-opened? If the doors were reopened, that should have reset the "out" time, if my knowledge of the automated systems is correct.
#4
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Upon arriving at ORD I was already within 15 minutes of my departure, which showed on time upon landing (we were told to check via our apps as the crew for some reason couldn't get us connection info) and needed to shuttle to the other terminal. So I went straight to the desk. I was later told UA held the plane for a few minutes...but didn't tell us, negating the nice customer service gesture.
I've been one of about 8 pax on a severely delayed IST-ORD (3hr+ mx technical stop) where UA silently held the connecting ORD-CLE flight about 45 extra minutes without telling the pax. We just went for it re: the connection and ended up being at the gate early!
After we closed the door, we had to sit there for 45 minutes and reopen the plane for the GA to come back on and manually verify passengers against the manifest one by one as the counts didn't match. The issue ended up being a nonrev in the last row who had somehow cancelled their res and then boarded, messing up the count.
…
At the desk I was rebooked for a 7a flight in E- (down from F) and then told I was not eligible for a hotel room as the delay was ATC. Despite telling what happened multiple times, as a passenger on the plane I was told I was wrong and that in fact we pushed 7 minutes late and arrived 58 minutes late but it was due to ATC, so no hotel. To dispute that I was told to go online with their 3 week response times.
Fortunately, I did go to anther concourse and get a new rep (still wearing a tulip badge) to issue me a hotel voucher for a few hours sleep. I'm now waiting for my downgraded flight home.
…
At the desk I was rebooked for a 7a flight in E- (down from F) and then told I was not eligible for a hotel room as the delay was ATC. Despite telling what happened multiple times, as a passenger on the plane I was told I was wrong and that in fact we pushed 7 minutes late and arrived 58 minutes late but it was due to ATC, so no hotel. To dispute that I was told to go online with their 3 week response times.
Fortunately, I did go to anther concourse and get a new rep (still wearing a tulip badge) to issue me a hotel voucher for a few hours sleep. I'm now waiting for my downgraded flight home.
With respect to your downgrade (F=>E-), did you pay for F? Or were you upgraded on the flight you missed? If you paid for F and ended up in coach, you're owed at least a partial refund (and a priority position on the departure-management premium-cabin standby list). If you missed an upgraded flight due to irrops, UA doesn't owe you anything and also doesn't typically offer any compensation.
Given that the cause of your forced overnight delay was a problem within UA's control (failure to correctly count pax onboard), you might want to write in to UA succinctly stating those facts and expressing disappointment that their internal process failure caused you a delay. You could also express disappointment that they mis-coded the delay reason and you had trouble getting a hotel, but this is kind of secondary to the issue that their irrops caused your problem in the first place. If you write in, UA may offer goodwill compensation.
#5
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Given that the cause of your forced overnight delay was a problem within UA's control (failure to correctly count pax onboard), you might want to write in to UA succinctly stating those facts and expressing disappointment that their internal process failure caused you a delay. You could also express disappointment that they mis-coded the delay reason and you had trouble getting a hotel, but this is kind of secondary to the issue that their irrops caused your problem in the first place.
#6
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
UA recharacterizing all kinds of delays as wx-related to worm out of providing required compensation is a big enough issue that I would consider a formal DOT complaint. The all's-well-that-ends-well bit is IMO secondary to the lying bit. And this is a systemic issue at United. If an aircraft was held up by weather upline, on the other side of the country, three segments ago, they may cite weather as the reason you're buying your own hotel 12 hours later.
#7
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My flight: UA1654 EWR-SFO 1/8
Departure time: 5:41pm
Boarding Time: 5:06pm
Gate C137
Aircraft#: 3437
Inbound Flight: UA1047 CUN-EWR 1/8
Arrival time: 5:00pm
Gate C137
Aircraft#: 3437
The first problem is that there ain't no way in God's green earth that any airline can turn a plane from arrival, de-boarding, cleaning and catering to boarding the new flight in 6 minutes. (plus, where I always check the status of the inbound flight as soon as it's available via UA's flight status link, I noticed this from the beginning and it never changed from the above)
The second problem is that the inbound was an international flight so it should arrive at the international terminal for the pax to clear customs, have the aircraft searched and whatever else CBP needs to do.
The Inbound aircraft did fact arrive at the international terminal (gate B61 & 20 minutes early) and eventually arrived at my gate where we departed 43 minutes late
The reason for the departure delay is noted as an "aircraft change" (yeah, right )
Aircraft# 3437 was assigned to both flights on United's flight status page starting from when I could view it (3 days out on the website and 4 days out on the mobile app) and it never changed right up to it arriving at EWR ex-CUN and including me flying on it EWR-SFO (and I constantly look at the aircraft# to see if there are changes right up to departure time [and especially with a 737-900 to see if it changes to/from a "dark" variant] so unless United has two 737-900's assigned as aircraft#3437 and changed one for the other and that being the reason for an aircraft change, as they say, "something ain't right"
Departure time: 5:41pm
Boarding Time: 5:06pm
Gate C137
Aircraft#: 3437
Inbound Flight: UA1047 CUN-EWR 1/8
Arrival time: 5:00pm
Gate C137
Aircraft#: 3437
The first problem is that there ain't no way in God's green earth that any airline can turn a plane from arrival, de-boarding, cleaning and catering to boarding the new flight in 6 minutes. (plus, where I always check the status of the inbound flight as soon as it's available via UA's flight status link, I noticed this from the beginning and it never changed from the above)
The second problem is that the inbound was an international flight so it should arrive at the international terminal for the pax to clear customs, have the aircraft searched and whatever else CBP needs to do.
The Inbound aircraft did fact arrive at the international terminal (gate B61 & 20 minutes early) and eventually arrived at my gate where we departed 43 minutes late
The reason for the departure delay is noted as an "aircraft change" (yeah, right )
Aircraft# 3437 was assigned to both flights on United's flight status page starting from when I could view it (3 days out on the website and 4 days out on the mobile app) and it never changed right up to it arriving at EWR ex-CUN and including me flying on it EWR-SFO (and I constantly look at the aircraft# to see if there are changes right up to departure time [and especially with a 737-900 to see if it changes to/from a "dark" variant] so unless United has two 737-900's assigned as aircraft#3437 and changed one for the other and that being the reason for an aircraft change, as they say, "something ain't right"
#8
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Upon arriving at ORD I was already within 15 minutes of my departure, which showed on time upon landing (we were told to check via our apps as the crew for some reason couldn't get us connection info) and needed to shuttle to the other terminal. So I went straight to the desk. I was later told UA held the plane for a few minutes...but didn't tell us, negating the nice customer service gesture.
#9
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There were multiple reasons for the OP's delay (as the OP states), when there are multiple reasons, UA will tend to post the reason most generous to them. Not sure why you would expect any other behavior.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
#10
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
There were multiple reasons for the OP's delay (as the OP states), when there are multiple reasons, UA will tend to post the reason most generous to them. Not sure why you would expect any other behavior.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
Last edited by fastair; Apr 14, 2014 at 12:06 pm
#11
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This is one of those things that United can make true since they control the swapping of slots. First you had a slot putting you in 90 min late. Then you swapped you into a slot that was only 14 min late, possibly due to another flight cancelling or having it's own problem. Then when your flight had the headcount issue, they could swap you into a later slot, allowing another flight in earlier. Since you arrival is still slot controlled, and the delay program is due to weather, your delay can be coded as weather.
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Since it sounds like you got the right outcome eventually (a hotel voucher), there's not a lot of room to complain to regulatory authorities here — what was the harm? You had to wander around concourses half-asleep for a few hours until an agent did the right thing? Bummer but kinda par for the course.
With respect to your downgrade (F=>E-), did you pay for F? Or were you upgraded on the flight you missed? If you paid for F and ended up in coach, you're owed at least a partial refund (and a priority position on the departure-management premium-cabin standby list). If you missed an upgraded flight due to irrops, UA doesn't owe you anything and also doesn't typically offer any compensation.
Given that the cause of your forced overnight delay was a problem within UA's control (failure to correctly count pax onboard), you might want to write in to UA succinctly stating those facts and expressing disappointment that their internal process failure caused you a delay. You could also express disappointment that they mis-coded the delay reason and you had trouble getting a hotel, but this is kind of secondary to the issue that their irrops caused your problem in the first place. If you write in, UA may offer goodwill compensation.
With respect to your downgrade (F=>E-), did you pay for F? Or were you upgraded on the flight you missed? If you paid for F and ended up in coach, you're owed at least a partial refund (and a priority position on the departure-management premium-cabin standby list). If you missed an upgraded flight due to irrops, UA doesn't owe you anything and also doesn't typically offer any compensation.
Given that the cause of your forced overnight delay was a problem within UA's control (failure to correctly count pax onboard), you might want to write in to UA succinctly stating those facts and expressing disappointment that their internal process failure caused you a delay. You could also express disappointment that they mis-coded the delay reason and you had trouble getting a hotel, but this is kind of secondary to the issue that their irrops caused your problem in the first place. If you write in, UA may offer goodwill compensation.
I agree that there was very little harm overall (though had I not found a second agent who gave me a hotel I would be much less happy), but I'd like to formally dispute the reason given for the delay. I did fill out the customer care form to do so, and this post was in hopes that others had gone through the same thing and may have advice.
Also so that others facing this know that the real-world version of HUCA seems to be necessary in these situations.
My upgrade was a paid one, not a CPU, and they're working through the refund for that. I was not offered any additional downgrade compensation, though that makes sense to me. Strangely, though, I was never offered priority waitlist in the F cabin, and I had to proactively ask for a refund and/or downgrade compensation. The agent seemed to be unsure if she could give it to me, so I'll be hanging onto the receipt to make sure it happens.
You mean you needed to get from E to C? You know you can walk from E to B to C, right? I would always first try to go to the flight unless I actually know it's left the gate. And I would walk rather than wait for the shuttle, unless it's right there. You can also check on flightstats.com or another site to see if it's actually reported to the FAA as having left the gate (more detailed information there than on united.com). I find self-help more satisfying than waiting for or depending on someone else.
There were multiple reasons for the OP's delay (as the OP states), when there are multiple reasons, UA will tend to post the reason most generous to them. Not sure why you would expect any other behavior.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...ght-delay.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...n-due-atc.html
#13
Join Date: May 2005
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Posts: 2,202
I had a flight last year that was delayed over 2hrs at the gate. Plane was there, but they were having problems with hydraulics. About 3hrs later, a storm came in and delayed us another 45 min. United stated weather as the delay for the whole thing.
#14
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SEA, OGG(I wish)
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Last week (April10) UA 1145 SEA-SFO departed approx 3.5 hrs late because of "customer service" issues. Originally, this was said to be mechanical, but then it magically changed to customer service. So just what *is* "customer service" as the ostensible reason?
#15
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What difference does it make? I understand the concern about 'reasons' that affect compensation, but if it's not going to affect your compensation (or in a positive way---surely "customer service" means the airline is responsible) then who cares what they call it?