UA Pilot Diverts to Remove Autistic Child From Plane for Safety Reasons
#406
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 6,526
This mother really offends me for a couple of reasons...that even if she was given 'bad service' (and no. I don't think being refused the availability of first class offerings as bad service)
a) she has taken the position that it was because her child is autistic, they were denied service -despite that no one else in coach was given the 'privilege' of which she was denied
b) that she should have been given this opportunity to order from first class because her child is autistic
c) that eccomy passengers being refused first class service is a crime against poverty
d) the poverty activist had no issues of pulling the DYKWIA card and informing the FA of her platinum status in the hope that it would get them to yield to her demand for first class amenities
e) the poverty activist who just took her family on what has to be a costly excursion to Disneyworld and claims that her and her daughter are well travelled is also claiming systematic discrimination and classism.
a) she has taken the position that it was because her child is autistic, they were denied service -despite that no one else in coach was given the 'privilege' of which she was denied
b) that she should have been given this opportunity to order from first class because her child is autistic
c) that eccomy passengers being refused first class service is a crime against poverty
d) the poverty activist had no issues of pulling the DYKWIA card and informing the FA of her platinum status in the hope that it would get them to yield to her demand for first class amenities
e) the poverty activist who just took her family on what has to be a costly excursion to Disneyworld and claims that her and her daughter are well travelled is also claiming systematic discrimination and classism.
I can recall several years ago on a lunch flight, FA asked us if anyone was not eating or would give us their meal as there was a elderly person who they were afraid was having a diabetic issue, and they wanted to give them a meal. Several of us volunteered. Generally in my experience people are nice, ok most people are nice. Its sad to me that rather than trying to fix difficult situations some people use them as an opportunity to let their inner scrudge out, try to show how much smarter they are.
I will leave responding to your effort to equate this mother to the Bolsheviks to others.
#407
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K MM, Accor Plat, Htz PC, Natl ExEm, other random status
Posts: 2,876
Did the mother say in her FB post (https://www.facebook.com/donna.m.bee...16056981803855) that "Juliette will not eat cold food"?
Did the mother pack warm food?
If the answer to the first question is "yes" and the second question is "no," (by the way, those *are* the answers) then I'm comfortable saying that the mother did not do a good job of preparing to travel with her daughter.
If you think that the mother failing to pack warm food when she knew her daughter hadn't eaten and wouldn't eat cold food constitutes good preparation, then we're never going to come to a common ground as to how this should have been resolved.
I'll let this piece speak for my view, it says it better than I could: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...autistic-child
...
I ask you to read the Psch Today piece and ask is what that author talks about is partially driving your views.
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I ask you to read the Psch Today piece and ask is what that author talks about is partially driving your views.
There is always a peanut gallery of harpies who are ready to pounce on victims and lecture them about how they have to take responsibility for all the many, many rules they broke and all the things they woulda-coulda-shoulda done differently. Rarely do they find fault with powerful people in positions of authority, no matter how out of line those authorities behave.
They blame the victim in order to make themselves feel safer: That bad thing happened to that person because that person did this and this and this wrong. I, on the other hand, would never make those mistakes, and so "that bad thing" will never happen to me. This is sometimes referred to as false empowerment—deluding yourself into believing you are more powerful and infallible than you really are.
They blame the victim in order to make themselves feel safer: That bad thing happened to that person because that person did this and this and this wrong. I, on the other hand, would never make those mistakes, and so "that bad thing" will never happen to me. This is sometimes referred to as false empowerment—deluding yourself into believing you are more powerful and infallible than you really are.
It's not blaming the victim when the "victim" takes to the public press claiming effectively that (a) UA hates children with autism disorder, (b) that UA was somehow obligated to provide her daughter with warm food, and (c) that UA had acted illegally, and (d) suggesting that this is somehow akin to class warfare against the poor, without (e) acknowledging any form of responsibility for her daughter's situation.
The article of your pop psych article is correct that we all make mistakes, especially as parents. What we don't all do is go to the media and point fingers at other parties in hopes of making a political statement, all the while trying to avoid any semblance of parental responsibility.
Greg
#408
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
The world needs activists. Aircraft in flight don't. Back on the ground at the gate with the door open, be an activist, at 30,000 feet, wrong place to try to make a point. Unfortunately, she is being rewarded for doing so. Not quite the level of MSbP, but not far from it either, especially if her daughter did nothing disruptive but mom made it out to be as if she was going to.
Unfortunately, none of us really know the daughter, none of us know what she is likely to do or is capable of. The crew didn't know either, mom said that she might commit assault against other passengers, maybe that was a realistic outcome, maybe it wasn't, but unless it was realistic, it was the wrong card to play (unless of course you wanted to make an issue for your cause, which she has now done) if it was realistic, then who could fault the airline from diverting. Disability or not, go onboard a plane, fly away, and tell the crew that there is a very realistic possibility that your family will start assaulting other passengers. Make no mention of a disability. Most likely, they will divert. So a claim of discrimination is off base. When they treat people the same regardless of protected characteristic, it is not discrimination, but equal treatment. Equal treatment is the absence of discrimination, not the presence of it, so she needs to throw that word out and find a different avenue.
#409
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
Since you're responding only selectively to other posters' comments and ignoring others (including mine), let me ask you these two questions specifically:
Did the mother say in her FB post (https://www.facebook.com/donna.m.bee...16056981803855) that "Juliette will not eat cold food"?
Did the mother pack warm food?
If the answer to the first question is "yes" and the second question is "no," (by the way, those *are* the answers) then I'm comfortable saying that the mother did not do a good job of preparing to travel with her daughter.
Did the mother say in her FB post (https://www.facebook.com/donna.m.bee...16056981803855) that "Juliette will not eat cold food"?
Did the mother pack warm food?
If the answer to the first question is "yes" and the second question is "no," (by the way, those *are* the answers) then I'm comfortable saying that the mother did not do a good job of preparing to travel with her daughter.
"Chicken & Swiss Focaccia $9.49
Tomato focaccia with chicken breast, Swiss cheese, arugula and roasted tomatoes
May be served warm on select aircraft"
That would have been a quick fix, but evidently the FA was not going to do this to fix the situation.
But my real question is - given that I have kids - how exactly was the mom supposed to keep the food warm. Was she supposed to being a microwave, plug it in? Perhaps the oven? How about a MSR stove?
As the article I cited to suggests, you are simply Monday morning quarterbacking. This was an issue that any good FA would have quickly solved, and it appears (from the overreaction) that this FA did not want to help solve it, then went on a power trip.
When the DOT raises a stink (they will per the ADA), and no passengers support UAs view - BTB, I'm still waiting for all of those links to the legions of folks on the plane who heard/saw a threat - I've not seen them in any report I have run across, United will fold like a cheap suit.
And the really funny thing that United in the past has trumpeted its work to help autistic kids fly:
https://hub.united.com/en-us/news/co...th-autism.aspx
Guess that good PR is sort-o-shot-to-hell...
BTB, for the many posters who keep insisting that on her FB page the mom said her daughter would scratch "someone" well that - and the news reports saying that, is flat out wrong. Here is exactly what the mom said: "Frustrated I said, after she has a melt down and tries to scratch in frustration, will you help her then?" https://www.facebook.com/donna.m.bee...16056981803855
BTB (again) - and so far not one has posted a link to any passenger hearing/seeing a threat - not a single one.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 18, 2015 at 10:53 pm Reason: Stay to the issues, not the posters
#410
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 270
If she was a danger or made a threat, she is removed, and finds her own way home. .. It is very clear that United put her on a DL flight, signed over her ticket. They could only do that if they decided she was not a threat. I seriously doubt that if United had concluded she was a threat that they could legally just dump her on DL.
p.s. this being FT, home of the pedantic, AS also flies it....
p.s. this being FT, home of the pedantic, AS also flies it....
2. i think i get where u are coming from now (altho still disagree)...u seem fixated on whether or not the girl was a threat. "the legions" of evil posters (myself included) who align w/ UA are focused on whether or not a threat was made.
think alot of us "siding" w/ UA feel the mom's statement (to the effect of 'if she doesn't get a hot meal, will u help me once she has a meltdown and starts scratching') is simply defined a threat of potential violence against the girl and/or other passengers safety.
> since the mom is quoted as having allowed she said it in numerous interviews, i don't think there is any reason to respond to the request to prove that a threat was made
> if u don't view that statement as a threatening statement, then i think thats where we go off the rails
#411
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: ORD
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott Platinum/LT Platinum, Hilton Gold
Posts: 5,594
After reading all your posts, it seems to me the only new argument you're introducing to this thread is whether or not the mother's statement can be interpreted as a threat.
It's a valid point. If she didn't make a threat, I would be much less sure of UA's action and position. We read the statement, which the mother said she made, but we don't have the context. Was she crying hopelessly or was she snarling angrily? I might not consider the former as a threat. Words can mean different things.
Based on what I've seen, I interpret it as a threat, however small and unlikely it may have been. So did the FA, and reported it to the captain. As much as we can all agree that UA's customer service could use improvement, I don't think that a decision to divert is something flight crews easily arrive at. I typically fly ~90 segments a year and have been lucky enough to have only diversions for weather. I've seen medical problems on board, I've seen disruptive passengers (obviously not the cockpit-rushers, but more similar to the "howling" autistic child in this case), and I've seen people argue with a flight attendant. But never a diversion for any of those situations.
The pilot thought in this case a diversion was appropriate, based on the FA interpreting the threat.
I'm just not ready to jump to the position that a threat was not made, when in my experience, it takes a lot to cause a diversion.
You can believe the "witnesses" who stuck around to support the mother and give their quotes, as the mother asked them to (as seen on video), while the UA supporters likely just left the situation alone and went to their next flight. I suspect that if this ever gets to the stage of sworn affidavits/testimony, we'll see a much different story from passengers.
So, was it a threat or not? That's really all that's left to discuss at this point, and I don't know that we'll arrive at a definitive answer here. The other stuff doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the mother was prepared, if the daughter ate a meal at IAH, if the flight attendant was polite or snarky about the meal he brought, if the daughter was really going to have a meltdown or what that would consist of. All that matters is was a threat made or not. After that, the captain has to make a decision on how to best respond.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 18, 2015 at 10:54 pm Reason: updated quote ot reflect Mod edit and removed response to deleted material
#412
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OSL/IAH/ZRH (time, not preference)
Programs: UA1K, LH GM, AA EXP->GM
Posts: 38,265
Nothing else matters and no one, not even the UA employees claim that the daughter posed a threat.
I don't see that as a threat, perhaps you do, [B]but not a single passenger has come forward to back up the FA's version
But not a single poster on this thread has bothered to address the fact that - having interviewed people - UA then put her on a DL flight! No way they would do this if they did not think the FA overracted.
.. I can tell you, the airlines don't pass on dangerous passengers to other airlines.
United's actions speak louder than any words their PR department can invent.
#413
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: AADULtArer
Posts: 5,693
Once the FAs are calling the front cabin on any passenger conduct issue, a diversion is imminent if you aren't close to destination.
#414
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With all the current hysteria about exposure to the blood of strangers, someone could interpret a statement even that one will make oneself bleed as a threat to others. Blood could also put an aircraft out of service for a while.
#415
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Yes, and she also says that she would not eat any of the food they had brought, which is internally inconsistent, otherwise they would not have brought it. Mom bought a chicken sandwich (per multiple reports) which turned out to be not hot and FA would not warm it. The sandwich is designed to be served warm:
"Chicken & Swiss Focaccia $9.49
Tomato focaccia with chicken breast, Swiss cheese, arugula and roasted tomatoes
May be served warm on select aircraft"
That would have been a quick fix, but evidently the FA was not going to do this to fix the situation.
"Chicken & Swiss Focaccia $9.49
Tomato focaccia with chicken breast, Swiss cheese, arugula and roasted tomatoes
May be served warm on select aircraft"
That would have been a quick fix, but evidently the FA was not going to do this to fix the situation.
I suspect the DOT is well aware the ADA doesn't apply to air transportation, per the statutory text.
#416
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 948
The sandwich is designed to be served warm:
"Chicken & Swiss Focaccia $9.49
Tomato focaccia with chicken breast, Swiss cheese, arugula and roasted tomatoes
May be served warm on select aircraft"
That would have been a quick fix, but evidently the FA was not going to do this to fix the situation.
"Chicken & Swiss Focaccia $9.49
Tomato focaccia with chicken breast, Swiss cheese, arugula and roasted tomatoes
May be served warm on select aircraft"
That would have been a quick fix, but evidently the FA was not going to do this to fix the situation.
#417
Join Date: May 2013
Location: New York
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott LTPP, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 1,079
Beegle said Juliette wanted a hot meal, so Beegle bought a chicken sandwich on the plane and asked the flight crew to warm it in a microwave. The crew refused, she said, telling her the sandwich would get soggy.
Additionally, via another article:
“I asked the flight attendant if they had anything hot, because Juliette is very particular about her food,” said Beegle. “If it's warm she won't eat it, if it's cold she won't eat it, it has to have steam rolling off of it.”
#418
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: SF Bay Area
Programs: UA 1K MM, Accor Plat, Htz PC, Natl ExEm, other random status
Posts: 2,876
“I asked the flight attendant if they had anything hot, because Juliette is very particular about her food,” said Beegle. “If it's warm she won't eat it, if it's cold she won't eat it, it has to have steam rolling off of it.”
So the sandwich merely being warmed per the description in Hemispheres magazine (again, which "may" be "warmed" on "select" aircraft) isn't sufficient apparently, per the mother.
Even when I fly intercontinental F on good airlines (i.e., not a US carrier), I still don't get food with steam rolling off of it.
How can it possibly be UA's fault that they didn't have steaming hot food in Y on a domestic flight?
Greg