sbm12

The WN seats are slimline. So are AA's and DL's. Even the new B6 seats are slimline. That is the way of the future. Get ready.

Doesn't it make sense to establish what the industry trends are to determine how they will affect UA? Or do we just take an incorrect statement as an accurate representation of the industry and go from there??

WineCountryUA

that is clearly within the bounds for this thread

correcting the headline impression is appropriate but
and folks can be pointed to there for more.

WineCountryUA
UA coModerator

sexykitten7

I didn't realize these were slimline! I took a quick look at a picture on VFTW's blog yesterday and thought they looked a lot thicker than UA's. The article posted here doesn't have any pictures/info on the matter.

Exleftseat

+1

spin88

Given that United has gone with narrow 17" seats and 30-31" pitch on its planes, I found this announcement from SW (courtesy of the Dallas Morning News Airline Biz Blog):

Southwest " will introduce new blue seats on the new Boeing 737 Max planes and on all new planes delivered in or after May 2016, Jordan said. The economy-section seats will be the widest in the industry, with a 32-inch pitch and a 17.8-inch width.

Southwest doesn’t plan to squeeze in more seats on the 737 Max, Jordan said.

“Rather than squeeze in another row of seats, our desire is to make more comfortable seats for our customers,” he said. “We want the best seat for our customers. That means personal comfort and leg space.”

Very interesting. I noted this as it appears that United spent a lot of $$$ on putting in really tight slim line seating, only to have very large competitors not follow them down that road. Curious if people think this will put pressure on UA to rethink its approach to seating space?

mduell

WN doesn't fly the places UA sends their 787 and will send their 77W with <17.8" seats, so I don't see any reason UA would look at what WN's doing here.

Kacee

"widest in the industry" is really just measuring games, because everyone's dealing with the same cabin cross-section on a 739.

I don't know how these seats will compare to the current WN slimlines, but the current ones are the most uncomfortable seats I've ever sat in.

Although 32" pitch is certainly welcome news for those why fly WN regularly.

spin88

UA's 739ER is coming in Y- with 30-31" pitch and a 17.3" wide seat, E+ has the same seat, but its 34" pitch.

And the A320/A319 has awful slimlines that have a 30" pitch, and are 17.7" wide per seat guru. That is a plane that most airlines put 18+" wide seats in.

So head to head, United is giving 2" less pitch, and narrower seats....

So when people "compare" they get a much better comfort level on WN, and even if they pay more to fly E+ on UA, they are not on nearly every aircraft getting a wider seat, they are just getting another 2" of pitch.

Do you not think this is going to hurt them at some point as WN expands (e.g. now flying into UA markets ex-HOU)


I flew WM yesterday, first time in a few years I had flown them, fight was short (SFO-SNA-SFO). I had no issue with the seats, but in a longer flight they may have not been good. Both planes had slimlines. Notably I took WN as (a) UA served this with a CRJ-700 and they are just awful after slimming, and (b) I did not trust UA to upgrade me, or (c) get me there on time. So WN got my $520 RT.

minnyfly

I believe UA is already in general the most premium/least dense among the big 3. So unless you want the opposite, they need to keep it relatively tight in Y. As an all Y-class airline, WN has a little wiggle room (no pun intended). They have a very low CASM to play with, and even more seats with tighter pitch are probably not as good an idea for them. There's less to gain and more to lose.

spin88

I don't think UA has a substantial lead in being premium heavy at this point.

e.g. the DL A320 has 18" seats in Y, and has 16F, 18 EC, 12 Exit Rows w/ extra leg room, and 114 regular pitch seats. UA has 17.7" in Y, with 12 FC, 42 E+, and 96 Y-. Different mix, but I would not call UA "premium heavy"

Ditto the 739ER. UA is20/39/120, Delta is 20 F/20 EC, 8 extra leg room exit rows, and 131 Y- seats. Slight advantage for UA, but DL has less elites and does not sell TODs, so the change of a good seat/upgrade is higher.

B787938

The DL 16F 320 config is the updated interior they are rolling out. There is only one or two out of mods. The others all have the ORIGINAL NW interiors featuring a 17" wide seat.

Having flown the DL and UA 739ERs they are both horrific and I avoid them both.

Kacee

The UA 739 is just a horrible aircraft from the passenger perspective, in both economy and F. It's like they did everything they could think of to degrade the passenger experience.

WN has already beat UA up badly on the west coast. Look at all the routes they've abandoned to mostly RJs (BUR, SNA, etc.). These are routes that as you note support $500+ RTs for a 350 mile flight.

WN has two different models of slimlines. You may have had the not quite so bad ones.

But great coffee

Their PDE is also pretty awesome. You can stream free live TV - awesome during playoff season.

lhrsfo

UA has the same issue that all the legacies have, pretty well worldwide, with competing with LCCs. They have a bloated cost structure so the only way they can lower costs is to degrade the customer experience. Eventually it's degraded to such an extent that it's no better than, or even worse than, the LCCs in pretty well every respect. Which is fair enough as they compete on price. However, customers' expectations are lower for the LCCs so they come away pleasantly surprised. The story they promulgate is that WN is just fine, which slowly changes to WN is good, unlike UA, which slowly changes to WN is better than UA - all achieved under a lower cost structure.

And all that is fine if UA's principal existence is a) to feed its network - but that's an expensive proposition and only works if the LCCs don't compete across its network - and to satisfy its elites with UCs, priority airport screening and extra legroom etc. - but that's an expensive proposition also.

If I look at BA as a comparator, competing with EZ and FR, they have a similar dynamic. Everyone has decided that EZ is just as good as BA and FR is tolerable. The sandwich BA gives you on shorthaul flights is worth not much. So the shorthaul has become either a feeder for the longhaul, or a place where elites can top up their status and enjoy lounge access. The longhaul is profitable but principally because of North America and the (to some extent perceived) weakness of UA, AA and DL. Take that away and BA is in big trouble and its shorthaul network will become untenable.

I see UA (and AA) being in much the same position - their product is expected to be better but it really isn't in any meaningful way and in some cases is worse. Their costs are way too high and they have to ask themselves what is their raison d'etre.

bizzarODog

Its a fair point to make and I pretty much agree with you. I would offer that the true difference is not in the quality of the customer experience once onboard the plane, but in the frequency and breadth of their networks. LCC's may operate to less desirable airports at major destinations (i.e. Stansted/Gatwick vs LHR), or don't offer nearly as many direct flights as the legacy carriers. For leisure travelers who are shopping for the lowest price, the LCC's compromises may not be an issue, but for those who assign more value to their time or flexibility in their schedule (i.e. corporate/frequent fliers) it can be the differentiating feature. Unfortunately, those leisure travelers who pay a little bit more to fly the nonstop on a legacy carrier may very well end up disappointed when the experience onboard (hard/soft product) is no better, or even worse than an LCC, and they propagate the story that "LCC-X is better than UA".

sbm12

Don't believe the marketing spin: The new WN seats are not actually wider. The seat pan/cushion is identical in width. The arm rests are narrower (and more flimsy IMO) on the Meridian seat but otherwise not much different than the size of every other 737 seat on the market. They will be a slimline product made lighter than even the Pinnacle product (which UA has on many planes) from B/E Aerospace.

The good bit is that CCO Bob Jordan explicitly said the company is not going to "cram another row of seats in" the plane as the new deliveries happen so the slimline-ness of the seats will result in more knee room on those new deliveries.

Also worth noting that the new seats are only going to be on new deliveries. They will not be retrofit on to the 600+ existing planes with the Evolve seat.

I sat in the prototype of the new WN seat yesterday. I am not going to be spectacularly excited about it when it becomes the default product.

n.b. The link above is to my blog or to one which I am a regular contributor. FT rules require that I disclose that in the post.