UA offers more true First Class seats than AA
Aug 26, 2014, 1:33 pm
#91
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And they put up with a substantially sub-standard product as a result.
Aug 26, 2014, 1:34 pm
#92
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You've said that at least once before. How many times should we expect to hear you reiterate your anti-UA rant with no substance?
Aug 26, 2014, 1:44 pm
#93
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No substance? Perhaps you should examine the facts. And learn what PRASM is so you understand UA's declining financial performance relative to its peers.
Aug 26, 2014, 2:06 pm
#94
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The moral of the story of this discussion so far seems to be that few are willing to concede that UA has, and will have for quite some time, far more true F than AA (or DL).
IMO, some are so needing to slam on UA that even something as lovely as having more F requires the UA bashers to come out and share the myriad of theories and explanations for how UA ended up with something that is better than its American competition. But it doesn't matter. UA still will have far more route options with far more F than anything flown by AA (or DL).
As FF business travelers who have tons of credit card spend and who love to redeem awards for F to travel to the places around the world we want to visit, we are delighted that UA will continue to give us the most options for F. We have miles/points with all of the major currencies (SPG, Chase URs, Amex MRs, UA, AA/US, LH, & AK), so we have available all of the airlines from which to choose.
Living on the West Coast, AA is largely worthless to us--since its few F flights are from the East Coast to LHR and GRU. Now, once AA gets its LAX-GRU flight off and running, we would consider that--but if it's only J, then we'd rather take the KE LAX-GRU flight in F.
Living on the West Coast, UA serves us well for leisure and business travel to Asia and Europe, with LAX-LHR, SFO-LHR, SFO-FRA, and SFO-CDG to Europe and LAX-HKG, LAX-ICN, LAX-PEK, LAX-PVG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HND, SFO-HKG, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-NRT, SFO-HND, SFO-TSA, and now the new SFO-CTU route...most of which offer true F. AA offers almost none of these, and DL only offers a few (and none with F).
UA doesn't serve us as well to South America, but then neither do AA or DL. AA's flight from LAX-GRU will help. Otherwise, we have to fly through IAH to reach South America.
We've also taken F to Asia using CX (LAX-HKG) and OZ (LAX-ICN). To be honest, OZ F doesn't blow us away compared to UA F on the LAX-ICN route. OZ had a slightly nicer suite, and much better food, but the IFE was horrible. The CX F is absolutely heads and shoulders above UA (or AA), with a supremely better suite and food, and better service overall...but we've had IFE problems 2 of our last 3 times. We've never had issues flying F with UA IFE.
We've also taken F to Europe using LH (LAX-FRA) and AF (LAX-CDG) and BA (LAX-LHR). Obviously, it's tougher to get LH now using UA miles, but we also collect LH miles for that reason. LH is better than UA, no doubt, in F--but it isn't SO much better that we mind using UA F....and LH J isn't that much better than UA J--though we haven't yet flown equipment with its new J. AF only makes available J, so flying LAX-CDG is more direct for us to reach Paris...but UA F is far superior to AF J. BA F isn't better IMO than UA F on LAX-LHR, but we will try the A380 LHR-LAX flight for the first time in October--which we hope will be better.
The moral of this story is that UA still serves us quite well and we appreciate UA GF--whether it be on miles or upgrade from J paid tickets. Is there better? You bet...but not so much better on all the routes we like to fly.
We're not alone.
IMO, some are so needing to slam on UA that even something as lovely as having more F requires the UA bashers to come out and share the myriad of theories and explanations for how UA ended up with something that is better than its American competition. But it doesn't matter. UA still will have far more route options with far more F than anything flown by AA (or DL).
As FF business travelers who have tons of credit card spend and who love to redeem awards for F to travel to the places around the world we want to visit, we are delighted that UA will continue to give us the most options for F. We have miles/points with all of the major currencies (SPG, Chase URs, Amex MRs, UA, AA/US, LH, & AK), so we have available all of the airlines from which to choose.
Living on the West Coast, AA is largely worthless to us--since its few F flights are from the East Coast to LHR and GRU. Now, once AA gets its LAX-GRU flight off and running, we would consider that--but if it's only J, then we'd rather take the KE LAX-GRU flight in F.
Living on the West Coast, UA serves us well for leisure and business travel to Asia and Europe, with LAX-LHR, SFO-LHR, SFO-FRA, and SFO-CDG to Europe and LAX-HKG, LAX-ICN, LAX-PEK, LAX-PVG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HND, SFO-HKG, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-NRT, SFO-HND, SFO-TSA, and now the new SFO-CTU route...most of which offer true F. AA offers almost none of these, and DL only offers a few (and none with F).
UA doesn't serve us as well to South America, but then neither do AA or DL. AA's flight from LAX-GRU will help. Otherwise, we have to fly through IAH to reach South America.
We've also taken F to Asia using CX (LAX-HKG) and OZ (LAX-ICN). To be honest, OZ F doesn't blow us away compared to UA F on the LAX-ICN route. OZ had a slightly nicer suite, and much better food, but the IFE was horrible. The CX F is absolutely heads and shoulders above UA (or AA), with a supremely better suite and food, and better service overall...but we've had IFE problems 2 of our last 3 times. We've never had issues flying F with UA IFE.
We've also taken F to Europe using LH (LAX-FRA) and AF (LAX-CDG) and BA (LAX-LHR). Obviously, it's tougher to get LH now using UA miles, but we also collect LH miles for that reason. LH is better than UA, no doubt, in F--but it isn't SO much better that we mind using UA F....and LH J isn't that much better than UA J--though we haven't yet flown equipment with its new J. AF only makes available J, so flying LAX-CDG is more direct for us to reach Paris...but UA F is far superior to AF J. BA F isn't better IMO than UA F on LAX-LHR, but we will try the A380 LHR-LAX flight for the first time in October--which we hope will be better.
The moral of this story is that UA still serves us quite well and we appreciate UA GF--whether it be on miles or upgrade from J paid tickets. Is there better? You bet...but not so much better on all the routes we like to fly.
We're not alone.
-- UA's network serves your needs
-- UA's network has more Int F than AA and DL
-- The value of UA GF
On the last point - as others have said - UA GF is redemptions, employees and corporate contracts. It isn't a product of choice.
The only point you are making is UA has more of an inferior product than DL or AA and UA can probably claim "The World's Most Inferior First Class."
Beyond that it's hard to understand what point you are trying to make? Is it that you would rather fly any product labeled 'First' over anything else regardless of it whether or not it is inferior? Personally I would fly a number of J products over UA GF, including JL, NH, KE, CX, SQ, VS, NZ, EY, EK380, QR, SA....
You seem to indicate you can fly F on whichever airline you choose -- which makes your comments about UA even more baffling.
Aug 26, 2014, 2:14 pm
#95
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Aug 26, 2014, 2:23 pm
#96
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I have never argued the point that I am using miles to fly in F. So why am I conceding? I agree again that were I to pay for F on a route that SQ, CX, or EK or comparable flies, I likely would not choose UA. Of course, if UA in F is HALF the price of F on CX, SQ, or EK, I might have chosen UA. Just because I can afford it doesn't mean I always think it's worth spending it: I can afford to stay in Aman, FS, Peninsula, and the like, but sometimes I find it just as fine to stay at a W or Le Meridien. It depends where I'm going, who I'm with, and what I'm doing once I'm there.
I've not said it is only for bragging rights that UA has the largest number of F seats among US carriers.
I present the possibility that like us, other business travelers who pay for business class (e.g. the good and best customers for any airline), want to use their miles for F or J when we travel for pleasure with our spouses, friends, or families. UA offers that to us, and AA doesn't nearly as much. DL doesn't at all. That alone has kept both me and my husband as UA customers--paying business class fares often. So while WE might not be paying for F, we ARE paying for J...and we wouldn't necessarily stick with UA if we couldn't get the award tickets in F as we can. There certainly are many other business travelers who think the same way. THAT is revenue, and that may be part of the equation for UA.
There also ARE people paying for F on UA--I meet them all the time since we often end of talking about it when flying! I've met people whose companies only permit flying on UA in F, people who prefer F and therefore upgrade from J, people who couldn't get F on the CX or SQ flight or wouldn't pay more for those flights, etc. I got no numbers, but I know it happens.
You may not agree or believe it, and that's fine! You have AA and DL (or foreign carriers) to enjoy. I love that! That's less people for me to have to worry about trying to grab my UA awards in F.
I've not said it is only for bragging rights that UA has the largest number of F seats among US carriers.
I present the possibility that like us, other business travelers who pay for business class (e.g. the good and best customers for any airline), want to use their miles for F or J when we travel for pleasure with our spouses, friends, or families. UA offers that to us, and AA doesn't nearly as much. DL doesn't at all. That alone has kept both me and my husband as UA customers--paying business class fares often. So while WE might not be paying for F, we ARE paying for J...and we wouldn't necessarily stick with UA if we couldn't get the award tickets in F as we can. There certainly are many other business travelers who think the same way. THAT is revenue, and that may be part of the equation for UA.
There also ARE people paying for F on UA--I meet them all the time since we often end of talking about it when flying! I've met people whose companies only permit flying on UA in F, people who prefer F and therefore upgrade from J, people who couldn't get F on the CX or SQ flight or wouldn't pay more for those flights, etc. I got no numbers, but I know it happens.
You may not agree or believe it, and that's fine! You have AA and DL (or foreign carriers) to enjoy. I love that! That's less people for me to have to worry about trying to grab my UA awards in F.
1. Yes, you likely have more UA F space than on AA
2. Yes, that means probably more UA F award space than on AA
3. IMHO, new AA J seat is better than existing UA J seat
4. Therefore, I'm less inclined to want/need to redeem for AA F award than I would if I were still an UA flyer with its inferior J seat
5. AA allows F award redemptions on OW partners at same rate as AA F awards so I can get excellent F awards on CX JL BA QF etc
6. UA F award redemptions on *A partners now cost much more than UA F redemptions
Therefore, as UA flyer, I would get UA F awards to more places on UA metal than AA flyer on AA metal.
However, as UA flyer, I would be locked in inferior UA F product (unless I want so spend a lot more miles) whereas AA flyer would get to choose from good AA J product in addition to OW F awards at the same mileage cost as AA F awards.
Aug 26, 2014, 2:27 pm
#97
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World's most inferior F class? Hardly. Is there better? Sure. But when flying from the West Coast to Asia, the F in CX, SQ, NH, and sometimes OZ is better in terms of better seating and better food, but those don't get me to Europe. When flying from the West Coast to Europe, the F in LH and AF is better than UA, but those don't get me to Asia. BA F isn't always better than UA F, and OZ F hasn't always been better than UA F, either. So if I'm to stick with an AMERICAN airline carrier that serves BOTH my domestic and international needs, as only an AMERICAN carrier can, then UA is far and away my best choice if I stick to an airline. AA doesn't serve me nearly as well, and DL is downright horrible for me in too many ways to describe. You can try to say AA has a better F than UA...but since AA flies that F on so few routes, that doesn't help ME in the slightest from the West Coast. UA therefore has the best F for me compared with AA, and DL doesn't offer it anywhere from the West Coast.
Perhaps part of the challenge in this discussion is realizing that the needs and preferences of some are different than the needs and preferences of others. You clearly don't like UA, so don't fly them. But UA serves our needs FAR better than AA and DL, and we like UA very much compared to those.
Beyond that it's hard to understand what point you are trying to make? Is it that you would rather fly any product labeled 'First' over anything else regardless of it whether or not it is inferior? Personally I would fly a number of J products over UA GF, including JL, NH, KE, CX, SQ, VS, NZ, EY, EK380, QR, SA....
You seem to indicate you can fly F on whichever airline you choose -- which makes your comments about UA even more baffling.
If it makes you feel better, we had flights in January from CPT on SAA and UA in J using miles (CPT-JNB-LOS-IAH-SNA) but ended up purchasing F on EK (CPT-DXB-LAX) instead. We chose PAID F on EK with only 2 segments instead of free J on SAA/UA with 4 segments. (Ebola wasn't a factor for us.) We got the EK F flights for $3200 per person, if you can believe it...so we went for it. Certainly, for us, PAYING for EK F was better in this instance than using miles for free UA/SAA J. Yet we still love UA F and J for the most part, and certainly love UA F and J and its network options for us better than that of AA and DL. UA F isn't the best out there, but it is also pretty good on its own. FOR US. Sorry to be the one who breaks your heart and lets you in on the secret that the 4th largest carrier in the world isn't so bad, after all--not to everyone.
Aug 26, 2014, 2:27 pm
#98
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KE is now 100% flat/horizontal - SA has been 100% flat/horizontal for several years. I would pick the JL and NH Flat/Horizontal offerings over GF -- much better service, food and wine - and a bit less space but higher quality seat materials doesn't feel like you're sitting on a plastic pony.
Aug 26, 2014, 2:34 pm
#99
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KE is now 100% flat/horizontal - SA has been 100% flat/horizontal for several years. I would pick the JL and NH Flat/Horizontal offerings over GF -- much better service, food and wine - and a bit less space but higher quality seat materials doesn't feel like you're sitting on a plastic pony.
Elitetraveler is correct that SA and KE in J now are true lie-flat. Of course, that also is true for UA in J on all longaul flights. Which makes it sometimes easier for us to not risk OTHER airline's J angle flat (where they have both and can sometimes switch equipment) and instead choose UA guaranteed lie-flat J on any longhaul. Others may make a different choice, but we'll go with the safest, less risky choice on a nonstop almost every time. (We've had LH switch equipment on us so many times giving us angle flat J that we now refuse to fly LH in J until they complete their overhaul in J.)
Aug 26, 2014, 2:37 pm
#100
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Time to downgrade this thread from First Class to E-
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